How can we improve Extended Discussion?

[KT Samurai]

ED is largely a joke at the moment, most folks who post there are prone to post more out of passion than good sense leading to threads being derailed and point-by-point rebuttles for a dozen pages. This is not a healthy forum at all, so how can we go about improving it?

Post your thoughts on the subject as well as suggestions for improvement please.

[Oh Snap.]

Is there a way to ban users from specific forums? If so, then thats what needs to be done. Perma or temp w/e.

Take it I don't need to mention names, and yes, I should be banned too. From ed I mean, lulz.

[D Morning Star]

I do agree that people post out of

passion and their own twisted logic

but isn't that what forums are for?

well i mean if every body just posted

factual or intellectual post than the thread

would become very boring.

[KT Samurai]

I do agree that people post out of

passion and their own twisted logic

but isn't that what forums are for?

well i mean if every body just posted

factual or intellectual post than the thread

would become very boring.

The purpose of a given forum varies from forum to forum, obviously.

The purpose of ED is to provide users with an acceptable area to discuss complicated subjects with increased detail. It isn't really supposed to be a place where you stand on a soap box and shout your belief system at people while expecting no one to challenge it. It's supposed to be a place where being correct is valued. Obviously, this is not the case at all.

I'm looking for ways to improve a mostly-dead forum. If you think it's fine the way it is then you're not really contributing.

Banning certain users from ED might produce some measure of result. But even then we'd need to figure out some sort of system of justifying our reason for removing them. Sometimes it's a no-brainer, but other times it can be a little tougher.

The one example I can think of right now is when we have an opinionated user who makes lousy arguments acting as foil for someone who knows how to present an idea. They act as pretty good measuring sticks of idiocy or insanity and can really highlight the lunacy of things. We have several of these active right now and I'm not convinced that they don't benefit the forum in their own idiotic way.

I'm just rambling now. Someone else take the floor.

[D Morning Star]

I do have a question are you talking about

a specif Topic presented by the forum?

And if you are i do apologize for my ignorance.

[Ian the Korean]

Too many stupid people with a depth of knowledge around the size of a puddle posting. This leads to both the point by point rebuttals that pretty much demonstrate a complete lack of complex thought processes as well as the quippy one liners.

[KaizokuOu]

I say it is probably more a product of what threads are started there. It seems all the topics anyone is interested in discussing to such lengths are elsewhere. Extended discussion is full of rather uninteresting topics.

[Shannon Apple]

The problem with ED are people who don't see the fault in their own posting habits. I'm not going to mention any names but a couple people stand out to me. They cannot let go of a stupid point and they feel the need to go around and around in circles when they are beat in order to win. Then these people say they were never beat. Everyone else gets bored trying to argue against insane logic and leave the debate. This person or persons enter another thread, do exactly the same thing and derail yet another perfectly good topic with their insane ideas. I would agree with banning people from ED that do this. A "three strikes, you're out" system seems pretty fair to me for that forum.

Now I'm not talking about people that others simply disagree with. There HAS to be two sides to a debate to make it interesting. This is only for people who go overboard and ruin sane discussions. I think most people here that understand logic know exactly what I am talking about.

[KaizokuOu]

They cannot let go of a stupid point and they feel the need to go around and around in circles when they are beat in order to win. Then these people say they were never beat. Everyone else gets bored trying to argue against insane logic and leave the debate. This person or persons enter another thread, do exactly the same thing and derail yet another perfectly good topic with their insane ideas. I would agree with banning people from ED that do this. A "three strikes, you're out" system seems pretty fair to me for that forum.

That is an incredibly subjective standard. Who determines that the person was "beat" and that it is a "stupid point" especially if the mods are against that person's position? When you disagree with someone it is much easier to feel they have been "beaten" when someone else expresses an opposing opinion that you agree with. It is definitely easier to think they are making a "stupid point" if that is what you think. I have had debates on a political forum and on a game forum that had much stricter rules. Nowhere was such a subjective standard applied, precisely because it is subjective.

[Shannon Apple]

They are beaten when they continue to regurgitate the same tripe in every post by not bringing anything new to the table. They have an idea in their head and they want to push that same idea on everyone even if they cannot bring any new facts to back up their position. That is when someone is beat, and whether I as a mod agree or disagree with their point is not the issue.

[Kewkehtsu]

Are we talking about ED or forum-wide right now? :P

Have an ED by invitation, or you could actually bother to moderate it. You know, like deleting posts, warning users etc.

[KT Samurai]

Are we talking about ED or forum-wide right now? :P

Have an ED by invitation, or you could actually bother to moderate it. You know, like deleting posts, warning users etc.

I've been doing just that, actually. And my increased activity there is what lead to the creation of this thread.

Invite-only sounds kind of interesting, if a little unrealistic. What sort of criteria would people be chosen with?

[Shannon Apple]

Invite only will lead to elitism. Trust me, I've seen this happen before and it didn't turn out very well. New users who are interested in more detailed discussion should be able to post there without limitations. It makes more sense to weed out the idiot people, giving them a couple chances to improve before total removal, rather than alienating 80% of the site.

[Kewkehtsu]

Iif you really wanted to do that:
Basically you'd watch posts people make in the sections like GD, CE,and PLD. You'll notice that there are a few people who are genuinely interested in a topic and actually bother to add to the overall discussion value from time to time without resorting to name calling and similar behaviors. Mods could make a note of who these users are, and every once in awhile send out a batch of PMs to those users inviting them to the ED board, you could also include the rules for ED and similar info in those PMs.

Basically you'd have to prove you could contribute to a thread via post quality before getting an invite.

[Tenken]

I'm with Pikachu on this. I think we've run dry on interesting and insightful topics. It was bound to happen. We probably need some outrageous and off the wall beliefs to be defended. But I should be careful saying that, because I really dislike the racist stuff and the conspiracy nutjobs.

Otherwise, we should kill it. No one would miss it except for me anyway. And I'd get over it.

[Kenshin Gordon]

Yeah, there is a lack of a subject that would be so against the current beliefs or a matter which would refer to a "mystery" so that there can be a proper ED thread. The last quality thread I concerned myself with was "An argument about free will". I have yet to see another similar thread.

[Kouketsu]

Problem with ED is the same problem with most of the forum right now and Tenken, Kenshin, Pikachu I think have the right idea with it, although I'd extend it further. Topics are getting stale pretty much everywhere. It's probably just easier to notice in ED because it's traditionally been a pretty low activity area in general relative to the rest of the forum, so when content in there becomes stale it becomes totally dead.

There were always mindlessly stupid posts in there, since its inception, really. They were just balanced out by more thoughtful ones. Take away the thoughtful ones (As a result of uninteresting content) and what you get is what you see.

[Gamma]

We had people with outrageous and off the wall beliefs. They aren't here anymore.

I suggest disolving ED. Current Events has largely taken it's place anyway.

[Kewkehtsu]

I'm not a big fan of dissolving ED as CE feels like a spam sub-forum. It's mainly the same group of people posting articles from other websites while trying to throw in some sort of comedic one-liner. Any discussion that goes on in CE is quickly overcome by the same problems ED faces.

[ProtoManX]

I admit I have not read everyones input here but I just wish to voice what I see wrong with ED then people can agree disagree with my views and post thier suggestion for each issue of ED. I believe singling out each issue and working on those individually will allow it to be moved on track and brought back upright.

Problems:
1. Limited topic coverage most topics seem to be focus on religion or politics

2. The quality of posts many people contribute little or entirely derail a discussion

3. Lack of consequences is the final one and really the one the staff can correct

Solutions:
1. If its not a rule yet it needs to be that people should not repost a recent topic they need to look it up. If a topic was last commented on more than 30 days ago, perhaps longer, then it can be considered dead and a fresh on made.

2. Post in ED should be held to a higher standard and this ties into #3 with more post being deleted for lack of contribution and off topic and so forth.

3. Flaming and trolling in ED should be treated more harshly due to the greater negative impact on this segment of A4 and thus needs a higher degree of enforcement.


Now I think the post ranking system will help with reducing the number of bad post in that they can get hidden from ranking them down. But even having to deal with that to me is a hassle for such a section. These are just random thoughts I doubt I will get around to reading what yall have but take what you can and will from my post.

[{oroka}]

How about making it invitation only? You have to request to have access to the forum... and if you cant handle it, you can be removed.

[KT Samurai]

So far we've had the following suggestions: Get rid of ED.
Mod it harder (intervene when **** hits the fan, don't allow point-by-point rebuttles that single out the rest of the forum, make sure arguments are sound, etc) and punish spam and off-topic posts much more severely.
Diversify the topics of discussion.
Make ED invite-only and don't hesitate to kick people back out again.

Lookin' good so far, keep the feedback coming.

[DcRising]

So far we've had the following suggestions:

Get rid of ED.
Mod it harder (intervene when **** hits the fan, don't allow point-by-point rebuttles that single out the rest of the forum, make sure arguments are sound, etc) and punish spam and off-topic posts much more severely.
Diversify the topics of discussion.
Make ED invite-only and don't hesitate to kick people back out again.


Lookin' good so far, keep the feedback coming.

I think another solution would be to keep it so that everyone could access it but if you prove not to be able to handle the discussions included your access rights go bye bye.

[{oroka}]

I would also suggest temporary locks on threads if they get out of hand. Kind of a cool down period... a good thread should not die cause a few (or one) people get hot under the collar. It will also allow people to gather their thoughts for when the thread opens again.

Make good spelling and grammar mandatory (exceptions made to people who English is not their first language). If you cant spell or compose sentences properly, it is hard to take a person seriously, and makes a easy target for cheap come backs when someone runs out of valid discussion points.

[Gamma]

I disagree with spelling and grammar restrictions and I'll tell you why. There are some younger folks here with valid, albeit undeveloped, opinions and they should be allowed to express those. Their posts are more likely to be misspelled or have grammar issues. I would however suggest that we no longer allow a cheap argument such as "learn to spell, lol". If that's all you have to post about someone's comment, your post should be deleted. Period. If you can't give a decent rebuttal, don't post.

[Shannon Apple]

I agree with Gamma on the grammar issue. Also, there are many people here, mainly Europeans, that have English as a second language and I have seen things being said to them like "learn to spell." It is not always evident who's mother-tongue is not English if they've got a fairly good standard, and it is none of our business unless they decide to say so. Spelling or grammar mistakes shouldn't ever make someone's point less valid.

[Tenken]

The only other suggestion I have is, I wonder if we could negative rep bad threads to the bottom of the page?

It kind of messes with the last post made stuff though.

[Shannon Apple]

Tenken, you can set your profile to hide negatively repped posts so that they are collapsed. You would be seeing the same kind of view as you would when you put someone on ignore with the option to "view message". The admins set that value to 10 though, so it would take 10 negs to hide. I think this was to compensate for idiots abusing the system in the beginning. I think if people started using it properly, we could have that value lowered.

Of course this would mean that people have to actively do their part and negatively rep the useless posts, and in the case of abuse, people with sense would have to fix it by voting the other way.


EDIT:
I just had a thought.

How about archiving the entire ED and starting over with only the latest threads, allowing people to discuss whatever they want regardless of whether it was discussed 2 years ago or not.

The problem we seem to be having is that new members are not allowed to post something because it's been discussed before. Over time opinions may change and where's the harm in subjects popping up again? New people, different year.

[ProtoManX]

I just had a thought.

How about archiving the entire ED and starting over with only the latest threads, allowing people to discuss whatever they want regardless of whether it was discussed 2 years ago or not.

The problem we seem to be having is that new members are not allowed to post something because it's been discussed before. Over time opinions may change and where's the harm in subjects popping up again? New people, different year.
Thats a good idea and I think the rules for ED should state how long a thread must be inactive before it is considered dead and a new/fresh debate casn be started. I would say in the range of 1 to 3 months of inactivity.

[Gamma]

I'd prefer to have a the longer time frame, like 3 months. Mostly because one year all we had were religion topics to the point where we had to declare a one month moritorium. There's only so much you can discuss about religion.

3 months inactivity sounds good, and it allows for new information that might come out in the interim.

[DDR Demon]

Rename it to 'subjective display of values.'

[Gamma]

Rename it to 'subjective display of values.'

My, aren't we bitter today?

Would you rather it turn into PLD?

[jubei_massages_goku]

Nevermind.

[Bieberhole69]

Let ED moderate itself. It was doing wonderfully a few years ago, what with the baiting and the trolling. Just because posts are fallacious doesn't mean they're not strong arguments; they're simply unsound arguments. Moderators should not point out fallacies if participants are not able to identify them.

Also: no more metaphysical/ontological/religious/abortion/capital punishment discussions. And pointing out a logical fallacy is by no means a way to discredit an argument.

[jubei_massages_goku]

And pointing out a logical fallacy is by no means a way to discredit an argument.

It is if the argument rests on a fallacy. Many often do.

[Shannon Apple]

I'd prefer to have a the longer time frame, like 3 months. Mostly because one year all we had were religion topics to the point where we had to declare a one month moritorium. There's only so much you can discuss about religion.

3 months inactivity sounds good, and it allows for new information that might come out in the interim.

Yeah, 3 months sounds like a reasonable time frame. We might have people come into ED a month after the last post, read through the thread and actually add something worthwhile which leads to more discussion. I've seen this happen.

As for fallacies, I agree with Jubei. Mods are members too and we do involve ourselves in discussions, just as any other member does. :P Where a whole argument is completely based on a fallacy, how can it be totally ignored?

[Johnny Couth]

I don't understand why you wouldn't point out logical fallacies as this is how you come closer to the correct logical conclusion. This forum is most infamous for its straw men arguments.

[jubei_massages_goku]

I see what Vessicator is saying. Someone could argue that abortion should be legal, and ONE of that person's points might be "This is what Americans want." That point would be an appeal to popularity, but if the person has more than that point, then obviously we would need to do more than point out that one fallacy.

However, as I said, many arguments are formulated around one or, in some cases, multiple fallacies.

[Johnny Couth]

Thats true, but I think that he's wrong to say it doesn't discredit an argument to point out a fallacy. In fact, its the only valid way to discredit an argument. I think that in order to improve ED you'd have to change the membership I don't know what else you could do. I rarely enter ED because I find it very hard to have a decent argument online I really need to be face to face.

[Bieberhole69]

I mean to say that fallacies like ad hominems and certain non sequiturs may also be valid points, and identifying them as fallacies does nothing to refute the points they bring up. Such appeals, although not logically sound, need not be purely based on rationale to be strong arguments. If the purpose of revamping ED is to better participants in thinking logically, isn't it essential to teach said participants why an argument is fallacious, and isn't this a more complicated process than simply identifying an argument as a fallacy? Moreover, isn't it also essential to teach said participants how to argue against a fallacious argument, and isn't this a more complicated process than identifying an argument as a fallacy?

Maybe I was wrong to say that it doesn't discredit an argument to point out a fallacy, but in some cases it does not.

[KT Samurai]

That's a fair enough point, Vess. But you're also getting into something that most folks never bother thinking about. I'm willing to bet that most people who surf this forum can't spot a fallacy to begin with, let alone know what to do when they encounter one including ensuring that it doesn't tear down a person's entire argument.

We're getting into subjects now that will completely baffle a lot of people and keep them from going into ED. Is this what we want or are we still trying to keep the unwashed masses interested in a debate forum? This is where the invite-only thing could be handy.

[Bieberhole69]

Invite smart people into ED. Talk amongst one another like retards.

[Shadow Fox]

How about have a "topic of the day" thread or something like that. Where a mod,Admin or "someone" picks out a topic on a subject that can range from Economics to whatever and it is disscussed for that day and locked the following day where the new topic of the day is chosen.

[Gamma]

That might not suck.

[Opace]

In terms of practicality, I don't think it'll work. If it's a topic fit for ED, then it would have a lot of discussion, debating and whatnot potential. I don't think 1 day, especially on A4 when activity drops significantly during the early hours of the morning over in the US, would be enough to squeeze any worthwhile conclusion to that topic. It is an interesting idea, though a week or even a month would be more appropriate.

[Cal]

I'm glad I found this topic. I know I'm "late to the batter's box" but nevertheless here's my opinion (since it still sucks), I read through everyone's opinions and agree with some and have a few of my own.

I liked Shadow's idea. Having a "featured topic" could benefit A4. Maybe if everyone has to focus their post into one thread it would be a more productive thread. However, instead of one we can have multiple ones. Shian can set admin tools to where users can't create topics, and all new thread ideas will go through mods or a poll or something.

Having neg. rep is unrealistic, but I like it.

The third option wont happen but it's a great one; throw away PLD....I mean when we have people talking about suicide or getting raped did we ever stop to think how that benefits a "family oriented site" ...with many kids on here from age 12-15... I'm not saying these topics are complete trash (some are) but when the OP is "I was raped when I was a child" "I wish my life was over, maybe I should end it"...we might want to backtrack a little and stop and think. I was talking to Gamma about this on chat today. She said (and I agree) that it's up to users to create "good" PLD topics, however this is mostly not the case....whether the thread starts as **** or gets derailed into; if you're not a Christian you're going to hell and vise verse... I'm looking at the PLD thread right now. I would say 10% of topics have been locked, 30% should be locked, 30% are useless, and 30% are decent topics... The last topic I created in PLD was over "sexting" it actually turned out more successful than I thought, aka it didn't turn into how sexting is against God's whatever or vise verse. It was a quality discussion for the most part, I wish there were more though.

My idea is to merge PLD with Non General Anime Discussion. I think the forum name "Person Life Discussion" is too welcoming for pretty much anything. I doubt this would solve many problems, but maybe some.

...On a side note (whereas 80% of people here will disagree with me) I think F&G should be trashed....but that wont happen either....

[Gamma]

Unfortunately Calvin, if we get rid of Fun and Games, most of our userbase will simply leave without a goodbye thanks for all the fish. We took the chat thread away one time and you'd have thought it was the Bay of Pigs all over again.

We also really can't get rid of PLD either. All we can do is maybe revamp the rules in that section to say something like "If you want to discuss whether you should kill yourself or not, please seek proffesional help immediately. We are not equipped to handle counseling this on an internet anime forum."

Unfortunately, the quality of ED posts has gone down since we've absorbed it into GNAD. I'm not sure what to do about it at this point as that was mostly an admin decision. All we can do is try something and see if it works or not.

[Darke]

Threads in PLD aren't about people killing themselves anymore, some threads have actually discussed personal life issues! Other than suicide!

Fun & Games should really be removed though. The bunch of people who would leave should just leave, I honestly think the amount of people leaving because of F&G is more than the amount of people staying for it. It just sucks up all the "discussion value" most forum users here are in love with.

[Gamma]

It's not that those posters are coming out of FNG and shitposting in other parts of the forum. It's that they don't, for the most part, post in any other section of the forums at all. Some do, but not many. We've attempted to coax them out of FNG by turning off post count in that section, but it doesn't appear to do any good.

If you guys have suggestions on how to do that without simply ditching FNG please feel free to share.

[Cal]

Threads in PLD aren't about people killing themselves anymore, some threads have actually discussed personal life issues! Other than suicide!

Fun & Games should really be removed though. The bunch of people who would leave should just leave, I honestly think the amount of people leaving because of F&G is more than the amount of people staying for it. It just sucks up all the "discussion value" most forum users here are in love with.

Yes, as I stated there are some decent topics in PLD. However, the discussion value of most are less than mediocre. F&G gives our users to have the ability to almost updater their status like on FB. People like that, even though it does bring in shittier posters and makes some good ones leave...


It's not that those posters are coming out of FNG and shitposting in other parts of the forum. It's that they don't, for the most part, post in any other section of the forums at all. Some do, but not many. We've attempted to coax them out of FNG by turning off post count in that section, but it doesn't appear to do any good.

If you guys have suggestions on how to do that without simply ditching FNG please feel free to share.

Trash it. The longer it stays, the longer we encourage **** posting. That simple. It scares good posters away and promotes shitty ones to stay.

[Gamma]

Cal, I don't think you understand. Think of FnG as a deep dark cave. Certain members live their whole forum life in this deep dark cave and never come out. If we blow up this cave, these members will move on to a different forum where they can do the same thing. They won't just simply dance into the light like munchkins in an Oz movie.

[Cal]

Cal, I don't think you understand. Think of FnG as a deep dark cave. Certain members live their whole forum life in this deep dark cave and never come out. If we blow up this cave, these members will move on to a different forum where they can do the same thing. They won't just simply dance into the light like munchkins in an Oz movie.

I understand. Like I said before though, I know it wont happen just an opinion.

[Gamma]

Sorry, misunderstood the post.

So why do you want to see this happen if we know it won't improve user's posting habits?

[Darke]

Versus should be moved out of F&G. I find it an interesting forum and people tend to have debates there. Why they decided to throw it in F&G is beyond me.

Disable the signatures in Fun & Games. I'm not kidding. I think it would give a feel that this forum is just a side one, and well, who doesn't like seeing their signatures? They'll have to get out at some point.

Also, watch over the spam there. I mean, when a thread obviously says "Rate the Signature", you shouldn't start a conversation there. I myself scammed a lot in there, because I thought it was okay since it's Fun and Games, well it's not, and Chat Thread is there for a reason. So you guys should assign one of you mods just to clean out all the trash in Fun and Games, and I gurantee you F&Gers will drop in number.

Or just move the whole F&G to a social group.

I honestly think you should remove the whole F&G and keep the Chat Thread, people won't get as mad. I think. Maybe.

[Cal]

Sorry, misunderstood the post.

So why do you want to see this happen if we know it won't improve user's posting habits?

It may not improve our current members posting, but when we get new members where do they go? The most active part of A4 more than likely, which is FnG. It's not so much improving users now, but making A4 look like "better" for new members. Anyway this discussion doesn't matter much, taking away FnG will be the same as A4 committing suicide, considering 80% of posts come from it.

[Gamma]

Versus should be moved out of F&G. I find it an interesting forum and people tend to have debates there. Why they decided to throw it in F&G is beyond me.

Disable the signatures in Fun & Games. I'm not kidding. I think it would give a feel that this forum is just a side one, and well, who doesn't like seeing their signatures? They'll have to get out at some point.

Also, watch over the spam there. I mean, when a thread obviously says "Rate the Signature", you shouldn't start a conversation there. I myself scammed a lot in there, because I thought it was okay since it's Fun and Games, well it's not, and Chat Thread is there for a reason. So you guys should assign one of you mods just to clean out all the trash in Fun and Games, and I gurantee you F&Gers will drop in number.

Or just move the whole F&G to a social group.


I honestly think you should remove the whole F&G and keep the Chat Thread, people won't get as mad. I think. Maybe.

Versus being moved out of FNG is a viable option. Part of the reason it was moved there is because at first we tried to avoid having vs threads of any kind. Then we realized that it was a failing proposition so we decided to move it to FNG because at least there, people wouldn't be spamming to up their post count. I'll throw this up to the rest of the staff and see what they think.

Disabling signatures in FNG is also a novel idea. If you choose to only post there, you'll never see your groovy sig. I like it.

We simply can't delete all the spam in FNG. Its so much it would cause problems in the database and it's more than one person can do by themselves. Hell, it's more than three of us can do together.

If we delete FNG and just have a chat thread, I'd rather just have a chatbox instead. One or the other, but not both.


It may not improve our current members posting, but when we get new members where do they go? The most active part of A4 more than likely, which is FnG. It's not so much improving users now, but making A4 look like "better" for new members. Anyway this discussion doesn't matter much, taking away FnG will be the same as A4 committing suicide, considering 80% of posts come from it.

So are you just venting? I'm afraid I don't understand why you would post a suggestion knowing that we A) won't seriously consider it and B) you don't expect us to.

[Cal]

Venting is an appropriate term I guess. I wonder back in the "glory days" of A4, was our main attraction a "Chat Thread"....?

Also, I don't think it's possible to disable sigs in a certain part of the forum. Not too sure though. Everyone would complain about it though, the staff would end up putting it back..

[Gamma]

Unfortunately I don't have an answer for that. I know that I came here in 2005 after RKF imploded and I arrived because of the anime and stayed because of the people. I imagine it was like that for many other users and my experience is not atypical. I didn't post in FNG much because I found Extended and Current events more exciting.

[Cal]

Has someone already said to get rid of it and replace it with a social group?

Is it even a possibility for the staff to do anything with Extended Discussion or FnG anyway? Just to be clear..

[Gamma]

All we can do is try.

[Ian the Korean]

Venting is an appropriate term I guess. I wonder back in the "glory days" of A4, was our main attraction a "Chat Thread"....?

Also, I don't think it's possible to disable sigs in a certain part of the forum. Not too sure though. Everyone would complain about it though, the staff would end up putting it back..

Nope, F&G was a newer development (05 I think?) and rarely used before like 06 if I recall correctly. Was more like a public trashbin where bad threads got stuck.

[Bongs4Jesus]

I think having the Chat Thread is good enough. I personally find all the other threads in F&G pointless. There are a lot of members that just post in F&G and if there is only the chat thread the number of people that post in F&G will decrease and they just might pay attention to the rest of the forum. Instead of having a section for F&G, why not just have a section for Chat thread in which you cannot post threads. So instead of opening the section of F&G, people will just click the Chat Thread. This may also cause them to pay attention to the rest of the forum.

[Gamma]

I don't think that would work either. If we're going to dismantle the FNG then let's dismantle it.

[Shadow Fox]

Not really sure how to improve. Maybe we need to make a better outline of what constitutes as Extended Discussion verses the general non anime stuff.

Extended Discussions should be meant for serious debates, Political views on current world on goings etc. However we just do not get any of that here. What is left there is the most boring, Discussions ever. Once in a while I will try to come up with something but never works.

A big problem is people today have just ran out of interesting, unique and "fun" things to talk about in many different areas of the forum and ED is one of the big ones.

So, so far my suggestion is

1.To maybe combine the ED with current events. Using the same tags "but more clear and easier to read" as the anime forum reads. Forcing people to tag their threads as being news or Extended.
This should help both of those thrive a lot more.

2. Redefine what constitutes as an Extended Discussion. Giving outlines of what makes a discussion something of the mature seriousness
rather than some mundane or weak topic that would be more suited to GNAD.

3. Maybe have a forum contest. Only one post counts per person. Everyone has two weeks to post a Extended Discussion topic.
The topic that is the most unique, and fun to talk about. Has the most people joined in on the discussion with the fewest diversions from the topic or flames etc. Might win something.

So it has to be fun to talk about, Something we have not talked about before or something that has not been talked about for at least three years. Fewest flames, Most people discussing it etc. Not only is this going to see an upward flux of people making posts there but those whom have not really joined into extended, Might get them more interested in doing it more often in the future. So ED will see more activity. So we keep the general discussion forums where it is. Just alter the Current events forum so that way little work is involved.


4. Extended Discussion should be a Luxury of the forum. Something that can be taken away. Starting off, members are allowed in there but the permission to use it can be revoked if abused. Even though no one really abuses it. It would give the mentality to people that. OK! So maybe I should take this a bit more seriously and put more thought into it before doing anything.

Kind of like if you were to send two kids to the same kind of party. One party is invite only and the other is free to join.
The kid who goes to the invite only party is almost guaranteed to behave more than the Free to join party. Why? Because
if he misbehaves he can get uninvited forever! The free to join party kid...there are always more free to join party.

Plus it gives that feeling of belonging to a group thing

[jeffari]

As far as I'm concerned, we're all here for the sole reason to discuss anime. With a large number of the user base on A4 being active for over 3 years, I can only assume it gets tiresome recycling the same content time and time again. No one wants to discuss Naruto or Bleach after the 10th time. I for one will always search through recent discussion of anime before I make my way over to PLD/FNG. It's a given a large portion of the posts in FNG are just trash and a waste but none the less, it keeps people on the site sifting through content.

I think removing the FNG section is a step in the wrong direction. Maybe fine tune things and make it clear to people it isn't just some off topic section people can BS. If there is no interesting anime discussion what do you expect people to do? I for one avoid any religious discussion as I wasn't raised in that kind of environment. Often times I feel like stating my opinion but why throw oil on a raging fire?

I think coming up with some ideas for more contests and events is something we can all enjoy. Getting the community involved in activities will draw people closer to the site. Having a reward is nice but that shouldn't be the incentive to signing up for it. I know I have a few ideas for events that would seem fun.

As for Extended discussion, I've noticed these topics usually get locked. I think the idea should be to maintain a steady flow of solid posting and handle the issue if one occurs. People tend to get real defensive when they state their opinion, as if everything they say is correct. I think it's important to correct people instead of throwing the ban hammer or flaming them, users or mods. Just off the top of my head we have around 10 mods, that I feel do a solid job in running things. I'm sure one of you can monitor these topics from time to time. People need to realize there is PM feature and that if they have some personal they'd like to discuss, do it there. I see so many times people open themselves up for abuse when the situation can be handled a lot easier.

[TonyTony]

Ha. You know how you can improve the overall discussion on these topics and opinions? Don't have them at all.

It's almost disgusting how many posters are quick to post a PLD thread or their opinion on Religion vs -insert something- thread. I find it absolutely absurd that we have more discussion going on in F&G and General non anime discussion then any other parts of the forum. You might as well change this forum to SocialTopic-Forums. (With a little bit of anime). Supposedly, we all like anime.... where is the discussion at then? The user base of this forum (in my eyes, might not be true) is not even old enough or socially capable of discussing some serious topics and actually putting in worthy discussion. Seriously, if you are gonna combat my views with "well we should be able to discuss other things besides just anime" go to a different forum? What is this forum about? I'm not sure what the owners/admins want this forum to actually be about and that is the (and might be the only) problem. I guess cleaning up the crap that is the maturity level and not being relevant to the name of our forum isn't an issue? There is a very big lack of direction and leadership as well as posters.

The owners/admins of this site really need to take the reigns and make some changes and the most popular posters and ones that actually enjoy anime/manga and RELEVANT things to these topics should follow suit. What do you want this site to be about? Social matters and current events? F&G and PLD? Or Anime and Manga? Because right now this forum screams the former.

This goes back to my original post on this when we were becoming more strict with flaming/spam. Again, not that I don't appreciate what Shian and whatever Kou does because I do, but if you guys simply cant handle it you need to get someone that has the free time to really start making the changes and has the time to control these aspects of the forum to make it better/relevant. On the other side of things if you guys are fine with the way it is, hey keep on truckin, just a little reflection ;x.

[Struggler]

Nope, F&G was a newer development (05 I think?) and rarely used before like 06 if I recall correctly. Was more like a public trashbin where bad threads got stuck.

Good to see F&G remembers its roots.

I simply have to say this: why does anyone in this most recent discussion think that they have any kind of insight into what ED should be? I've only been here a few months, but even I know that ED has always been a place for the most serious and thought-out discussions - or is supposed to be. It's basically the place where KT, Buddylee, Vess, Tenken, Kenshin, and others have discussions with each other and those like them. Why you guys (or even myself as well) think that you know what's best to do with the sub-forum is beyond me. Saying 'we should do this or that with a sub-forum I never post in or have no place being in' isn't a way of "improving" anything - it's just changing for the sake of changing.

The only thing that needs to be done with ED is monitoring it like ED should be monitored. It's supposed to be heavily moderated, so let's keep it that way. There were a few recent threads made for ED, and none of them actually deserved the ED tag. This is something that needs to change. ED is fine the way it is - it just needs to be treated the way it was meant to.

[Kouketsu]

I swear there's a new thread or a revived thread about all this stuff every week. Regarding ED specifically - there's no mystery here anymore, the big problem is that the level of post quality on the forum has degraded so thoroughly that people don't even bother creating topics that would warrant being called "Extended Discussions." And when they do, they get locked for sucking.

If you look at the old ED threads that once were, you'll see a bunch of people who, for the most part, no longer post here. There's a reason for that. I'm not trying to offend everybody here today, but if you had a great, thought-provoking thread topic that you thought should be an 'extended discussion', would you post it knowing that the only replies it's going to get will be from Naruto679 and AnimeIsKool64? **** no.

We're not combining it with another forum (We already did that), we're not holding an ED contest, we're not doing any of that. Thank you guys for the suggestions regardless, but I think they're not hitting at the root of the problem.


As far as I'm concerned, we're all here for the sole reason to discuss anime. With a large number of the user base on A4 being active for over 3 years, I can only assume it gets tiresome recycling the same content time and time again. No one wants to discuss Naruto or Bleach after the 10th time. I for one will always search through recent discussion of anime before I make my way over to PLD/FNG. It's a given a large portion of the posts in FNG are just trash and a waste but none the less, it keeps people on the site sifting through content.

I think the bolded part is less true now than it ever has been before. I do happen to think, though, that part of this could be attributed to the mammoth presence of F&G. It attracts a different kind of person here, not the kind of people that are interested in really discussing much of anything, anime included, even if they still watch it. We get those people here and F&G does keep them on the site sifting through content, but most of that content is confined to F&G and, when it isn't, they make posts that don't really have a lot of substance to them. There are of course exceptions to this, but I think this is getting at the problem.


I think coming up with some ideas for more contests and events is something we can all enjoy. Getting the community involved in activities will draw people closer to the site. Having a reward is nice but that shouldn't be the incentive to signing up for it. I know I have a few ideas for events that would seem fun.

If you have ideas, we'd definitely love to hear them - or better yet, would love to see them put in motion. We've always supported whenever users come up with their own events and contests and things and need a little bit of promotional help or something.


Ha. You know how you can improve the overall discussion on these topics and opinions? Don't have them at all.

It's almost disgusting how many posters are quick to post a PLD thread or their opinion on Religion vs -insert something- thread. I find it absolutely absurd that we have more discussion going on in F&G and General non anime discussion then any other parts of the forum. You might as well change this forum to SocialTopic-Forums. (With a little bit of anime). Supposedly, we all like anime.... where is the discussion at then? The user base of this forum (in my eyes, might not be true) is not even old enough or socially capable of discussing some serious topics and actually putting in worthy discussion. Seriously, if you are gonna combat my views with "well we should be able to discuss other things besides just anime" go to a different forum? What is this forum about? I'm not sure what the owners/admins want this forum to actually be about and that is the (and might be the only) problem. I guess cleaning up the crap that is the maturity level and not being relevant to the name of our forum isn't an issue? There is a very big lack of direction and leadership as well as posters.

The owners/admins of this site really need to take the reigns and make some changes and the most popular posters and ones that actually enjoy anime/manga and RELEVANT things to these topics should follow suit. What do you want this site to be about? Social matters and current events? F&G and PLD? Or Anime and Manga? Because right now this forum screams the former.

This goes back to my original post on this when we were becoming more strict with flaming/spam. Again, not that I don't appreciate what Shian and whatever Kou does because I do, but if you guys simply cant handle it you need to get someone that has the free time to really start making the changes and has the time to control these aspects of the forum to make it better/relevant. On the other side of things if you guys are fine with the way it is, hey keep on truckin, just a little reflection ;x.

Let me make one thing clear in response to this post, because it seems to not only be a misconception in what you've said but a misconception in a lot of other places here: At the end of the day, there are two pieces here - there's the site owner and there's the staff. Shian and I are part of the staff. For all intents and purposes, we are basically mods that can do more backend stuff (Shian has more access than I do, although we both still have much less than aforementioned owner). We still are limited in this respect from how much we can actually do.

That said, there is also a lot more thought that goes into the decisions made here than people are usually privy to (And believe me when I say I've been pushing for a lot more transparency from the outset and that's exactly what you guys have been getting since I became an admin) and a lot more upsides and downsides to weigh on every decision being made than people seem to think. For the most part, A4 is laissez-faire paired with some rule enforcement and a bit of occasional intervention to try and enhance things. What we want it to be is a place where people with a like interest - anime/geek culture trends (If we're being honest) - can come together and discuss things and enjoy the experience. Whether or not those things being discussed are anime-related is secondary. When people aren't enjoying the experience here is when we have to consider stepping in, but we have to weigh whether or not their complaints are warranted, whether or not our actions will make the experience worse for others, whether or not that detriment is worth the benefit, and whether or not there's a benefit at all. This is why we might do things like move clubs to social groups, but not do things like completely kill F&G even if most of the staff doesn't like it.

But ultimately the only people who decide what content is posted on this site is you guys. And if you guys want threads about certain things and threads with a certain level of quality, then all we can tell you to do is make threads about those things and make posts with that level of quality. If you think we need more members, welcome the new ones, introduce others, help out, do what you can. Like we can't make things suddenly get awesome here. What made A4 awesome before was its awesome community, not its "awesome" staff or its "awesome" anime discussions or its "awesome" extended discussions or whatever. It was just a lot of great people (And some not-so-great ones) coming together at once.

[Tenken]

Heh, funny that this thread is two years old now. Looking at that earlier page, I have to say the conspiracy stuff bugs me a bit more these days.

Some of Vessicator's comments were pretty applicable too. I always wonder every time I post an extended thread here. A lot of it in the past was inaccessible BS. Some of it was interesting. But most people seemed scared off by it. These days I try to tone it down a lot and I'm still surprised by some of the responses I get.

It's like you can always expect them.

[Cal]

Ha. You know how you can improve the overall discussion on these topics and opinions? Don't have them at all.

It's almost disgusting how many posters are quick to post a PLD thread or their opinion on Religion vs -insert something- thread. I find it absolutely absurd that we have more discussion going on in F&G and General non anime discussion then any other parts of the forum. You might as well change this forum to SocialTopic-Forums. (With a little bit of anime). Supposedly, we all like anime.... where is the discussion at then? The user base of this forum (in my eyes, might not be true) is not even old enough or socially capable of discussing some serious topics and actually putting in worthy discussion. Seriously, if you are gonna combat my views with "well we should be able to discuss other things besides just anime" go to a different forum? What is this forum about? I'm not sure what the owners/admins want this forum to actually be about and that is the (and might be the only) problem. I guess cleaning up the crap that is the maturity level and not being relevant to the name of our forum isn't an issue? There is a very big lack of direction and leadership as well as posters.

The owners/admins of this site really need to take the reigns and make some changes and the most popular posters and ones that actually enjoy anime/manga and RELEVANT things to these topics should follow suit. What do you want this site to be about? Social matters and current events? F&G and PLD? Or Anime and Manga? Because right now this forum screams the former.

This goes back to my original post on this when we were becoming more strict with flaming/spam. Again, not that I don't appreciate what Shian and whatever Kou does because I do, but if you guys simply cant handle it you need to get someone that has the free time to really start making the changes and has the time to control these aspects of the forum to make it better/relevant. On the other side of things if you guys are fine with the way it is, hey keep on truckin, just a little reflection ;x.

I completely agree. The staff may say that the community can decide because it's our forum, but when over 50% of the user base only posts in FnG, you have to stop and think.

[TonyTony]

Let me make one thing clear in response to this post, because it seems to not only be a misconception in what you've said but a misconception in a lot of other places here: At the end of the day, there are two pieces here - there's the site owner and there's the staff. Shian and I are part of the staff. For all intents and purposes, we are basically mods that can do more backend stuff (Shian has more access than I do, although we both still have much less than aforementioned owner). We still are limited in this respect from how much we can actually do.

That said, there is also a lot more thought that goes into the decisions made here than people are usually privy to (And believe me when I say I've been pushing for a lot more transparency from the outset and that's exactly what you guys have been getting since I became an admin) and a lot more upsides and downsides to weigh on every decision being made than people seem to think. For the most part, A4 is laissez-faire paired with some rule enforcement and a bit of occasional intervention to try and enhance things. What we want it to be is a place where people with a like interest - anime/geek culture trends (If we're being honest) - can come together and discuss things and enjoy the experience. Whether or not those things being discussed are anime-related is secondary. When people aren't enjoying the experience here is when we have to consider stepping in, but we have to weigh whether or not their complaints are warranted, whether or not our actions will make the experience worse for others, whether or not that detriment is worth the benefit, and whether or not there's a benefit at all. This is why we might do things like move clubs to social groups, but not do things like completely kill F&G even if most of the staff doesn't like it.

But ultimately the only people who decide what content is posted on this site is you guys. And if you guys want threads about certain things and threads with a certain level of quality, then all we can tell you to do is make threads about those things and make posts with that level of quality. If you think we need more members, welcome the new ones, introduce others, help out, do what you can. Like we can't make things suddenly get awesome here. What made A4 awesome before was its awesome community, not its "awesome" staff or its "awesome" anime discussions or its "awesome" extended discussions or whatever. It was just a lot of great people (And some not-so-great ones) coming together at once.

And what part of FnG or PLD is part of anime/geek culture? None at all. This takes away from the very experience you are describing. And what do you know these are some of the most popular sections of the site! If this is what you want, then like I said, keep on truckin man it's no sweat off my back. I have lurked this forum for -years- bro. Now I don't know how long you've been here but it wasn't always this bad. And it's bad, maybe not to the average user because this is what they have came to love, the non chalant social setting, but when it comes to some awesome anime/nerdculture discussion, the posts just aren't there.

This brings me to the next part, yeah the posters are who decides what content is posted...but the mods and the admins are who decides what stays...it's a two way street. It takes all of us together to make something better you cannot put the "blame" (i use this word loosely because there is people that obviously like this site the way it is) on just the posters. This is probably why the site is like it is now, someone saying "Well it's all on them, let them fend for themselves" that this happened. And yes you can make things get awesome, you take charge, you start taking the initiative like I said and the good posters will follow. I understand if you don't have time for this, which is why I said get someone that can.

Anyway, the feeling I get from your post is that its about the "community" feel and not the actual quality/content of posts. I guess I misunderstood!

[Struggler]

I completely agree. The staff may say that the community can decide because it's our forum, but when over 50% of the user base only posts in FnG, you have to stop and think.

And if something is done that pisses of that '50%' and leads to them leaving, where would we be at then? In a significantly worse position than we are now.

You have to remember that this is a public forum. We can try to guide it in the direction we want it to go, but it exists for the users, and it becomes what they want it to be. Forcing it to be one thing or another just leads to anger from one group of users or another.


And what part of FnG or PLD is part of anime/geek culture? None at all. This takes away from the very experience you are describing. And what do you know these are some of the most popular sections of the site! If this is what you want, then like I said, keep on truckin man it's no sweat off my back. I have lurked this forum for -years- bro. Now I don't know how long you've been here but it wasn't always this bad. And it's bad, maybe not to the average user because this is what they have came to love, the non chalant social setting, but when it comes to some awesome anime/nerdculture discussion, the posts just aren't there.

Well, A4 must still be doing something right, if even when it's 'really bad', we still have people hanging who have been for years.


This brings me to the next part, yeah the posters are who decides what content is posted...but the mods and the admins are who decides what stays...it's a two way street. It takes all of us together to make something better you cannot put the "blame" (i use this word loosely because there is people that obviously like this site the way it is) on just the posters. This is probably why the site is like it is now, someone saying "Well it's all on them, let them fend for themselves" that this happened. And yes you can make things get awesome, you take charge, you start taking the initiative like I said and the good posters will follow. I understand if you don't have time for this, which is why I said get someone that can.

We decide whether something that could be considered 'crap' stays or goes, but if something is good, it almost always stays. The problem? There isn't much of it. We can't just magically wave a hand and improve what people post. We could clear out as much F&G bullshit as we possibly could, yet that will not somehow improve what's still being posted. It will be the same stuff, just without the crappy fluff around it. If that's what you consider an improvement, then okay, but all I see it as is attacking the activity we do have, and being left with an illusion of nothing but "quality" posts.

[Kouketsu]

Calvin, TonyTony, you guys are still ignoring the problem here. We have taken charge, we have taken initiative, we have been making plenty of changes, we have done a lot, but at the end of the day, we cannot magically make people post better. The burden of that is on those users themselves to improve. There are only three things we as staff can do:

1. We can remove posts we don't want.
2. We can try to cultivate an environment that encourages better posting.
3. We can make posts ourselves as members of this forum.

We do all three of these things in different ways, but it is not going to make AnimeFan67 magically learn how to post better or about more relevant things. Removing a bunch of other sections isn't going to suddenly make thoughtful anime discussions appear. It's just going to remove that content (And we already remove a ****ton of it to begin with). I don't know where you guys get this idea that we can make better posts appear. We can encourage them, we can remove them, but we can't control what you guys decide to post about in the first place and how you decide to post it. And that's where the biggest problem lies. Like I said, when this place was better, it's because the users were better, the community was better. Not because the staff was better or more active or doing something differently. Short of just outright banning a ton of people because they "don't post good", there's no way we're going to be able to significantly change the composition of this forum's userbase right now by ourselves.

[N7_]

It's simple if you ask me.

#Extended back in a sub-forum.
#Heavy mod Extended.

As Tenken pointed out, it is a concern when this nonsense becomes too frequent that it begins to be expected. The players that enjoy in-depth discussions shouldn't have to expect spam and derailment (sic)

I mean, really - just over two years? Wow. If people care enough members and staff alike, sort this sh*t out already.