Reflections on Fun & Games

[Kouketsu]

This may go well or this may go poorly, but I feel compelled to put it up regardless.

So I've been curious for awhile to know what most people on A4 really think about this section of the forum. Coming up now on its sixth year of existence, Fun & Games has at times been a rather controversial place, seeing both its low moments and its higher ones, and I feel like it's time to take a step back and ask "Is this really what we want A4 to be?" (Yeah, I know, Kou's getting all super-serious now, but stick with me here, there's likely going to be a big wall of text here, but please read it).

For a lot of you here, this section of A4 has always existed, just a normal fixture of the forum, hard to imagine without it. But things weren't always this way. For the first three years or so, there was no Fun & Games here on A4. And it's no coincidence that if you ask just about anybody who has been here since those years what their favorite time was on A4, they'll say then, the pre-F&G era.

There was a different ambiance to this place, a different form. All the other sections of the forum were active, real active, and we had about twice as many of them as we do today (We actually had individual subforums for dozens of different popular anime series and even some games). The general non-anime sections were thriving and full of posts (Some good, some bad, but much more in favor of good compared to today), the video game sections were fresh, piles and piles of posts to read and respond to and enjoy. Hell, people actually posted about anime on a regular basis here! Even me!

And the community make-up was different then, too. It felt kinda like everybody knew everybody in a way (Even if that wasn't true) because we all posted everywhere rather than in cliques formed out of people who go to IRC or out of people who do A4 voice chats or, most commonly, out of people who chat in Fun & Games.

Now I'm not here to sit and reminisce about how things were - don't mistake my purpose, it's just I'd rather people had an anecdotal glimpse into a firsthand account of where we are today versus where we were then. A lot of people come up with different reasons and theories about why we're so dead now (And relatively speaking, we are, make no mistake), about why post quality is down, about why sections are dying out. Some of them are valid, some less so. But an undeniable catalyst in A4's history was the introduction of the Fun & Games forum.

Fun & Games changed the chemistry here. It very quickly became the centerpiece of the forum (And it still is today - the vast majority of posts, threads, and activity takes place there, and nowhere else on the forum is even close), it changed how people posted, how people acted, what the expectation was. It changed what kind of members we attract here and how people interact with and form relationships with one another. We used to get to know one another by making threads and posting about stuff that implicitly revealed our tastes and unique personalities. Now we do so mostly by flirting with each other in F&G or not at all. We used to have fun on A4 by posting in topics which merited actual discussion - be it about anime, games, personal lives, music, or plenty of other things. Now it's like Fun & Games is where the 'fun' is supposed to live and everywhere else is just a chore that can only be made fun by turning it into the kind of posts you'd find in F&G. Things are certainly different now.

So with all that said, the reason this thread is being posted up in the feedback forum is because I want feedback - genuine, honest thoughts and feelings from people, from everybody - about Fun & Games. I've shared most of my own thoughts, but now I wanna hear from you guys. About why you post there, if you do, about why you don't post there if you don't. About whether or not you think it belongs here, about whether you think it's a benefit or a detriment to the forum as a whole, about what you think it means for A4's image when it comes to potential members. Anything you have at all about it, I'd like to know.

[Zer0]

I can't blame you. But we have already lost a lot of good posters due to shitty decisions to keep new members.

But honestly I'm totally fine with FG being removed. It used to be fun like the superman vs goku moments but for the most part FG has been extremely repetitive and dumb.
The only I think I even like was the chat where you can just chill with people.

[Cal]

Most of the community here post frequently in FnG, even some of the Staff. As you already said (even though I wasn't here then) preFnG featured what this forum was about, which was anime. It's now a Spam Hole with the option to talk about anime or talk about the existence of God... if you want.

I rarely post in FnG. Why? I don't visit this forum to "chat" etc, I use the IRC Channel <--what it's there for....

Anyway to answer your questions..

-I hardly use FnG
-I think it (as a whole) only hurts the forum
.....to elaborate; Good posters who come here will eventually find out what the users here talk about the most and care about. 80% of new posts here are FnG. Self-Explanatory, but what do you think they think? I think if we want this place to grow in the right direction, the most important users are the ones who lurk here and haven't signed up or the ones posting their intro threads now.
-It doesn't belong here. WE HAVE IRC, USE THAT.

Now to ramble on again....

If you cut out FnG tomorrow we would eventually lose a lot of our user base. As horrible as this might sound, is that a good thing or a bad thing? Ask me and I say it's a good thing. If you only come here to post there I would advise you to get a FB and have fun there.

I don't want to turn my post into an off-the-wall suggestion post in itself but, if we stay on this route we promote this place to be a FnG center. I'm always for the members deciding what's best for the forum, but I'm afraid here they would see it in a different view from me...which is why I think this should be ultimately a Staff Decision because people who mainly use the FnG are going to want to keep it and people who don't will be able to say bye to it pretty quick....

[NavonWise]

I don't know if I had said this before, but I think the Chat Thread sucks nowadays. The Chat Thread wasn't even called the Chat Thread, if it was October, it would be called A4's Halloween Chat or something like that. And we would role play a bit and joke around.

[Snow Wolf]

ok i know i’m a nobody here. but if you get rid of the FnG forum this site will die. the FnG forum is part of the community. it’s how we get to know each other.

and the IRC Channel well lol that’s a joke... IRC is like channel 19 at a truck stop on a CB.... and if you never experienced it. try it. but let me warn you. you’ll here things you wish you never heard. where the FnG forum it’s more..... well for a lack of a better word, fun... fun for everybody. i guess you can say it’s more PG or PG13. where the irc is more for the loudmouths, Aholes, mud throwers, and hazing kings.... nothing wrong with it. just some ppl will not like it... (not everybody on the irc is that way... it does get bad...)

i think you should keep the FnG

[Bongs4Jesus]

Alright so first off, I haven't been on this forum that long so this is what I think, it is my opinion and what I felt during the time I have been here.

I will start off my talking about the chat thread. Its easier to access, than the IRC. I know its a same number of clicks away but people still use it more than the irc. Seriously, no one wants to go up to community and then click irc and then open a whole new page in which they can chat. Having an easier access to chat will reduce the amount the things that are posted in the chat thread. People post whatever is on their mind in the chat thread, if we have like a shoutbox where people are talking right in front of them, instead of scrolling down to the chat thread to post it, they will just shout in the shoutbox.

As for other threads in F&G, people post in those threads to pass time and so that they can get a reply in the chat thread during that time. If less people post in the chat thread, less people will post in the other threads.

It is really easy to get addicted to posting in the F&G but I don't think we should close it. Sometimes you just need a break and just post random stuff and that is what F&G should be used for. Note, I said sometimes but people here do it all the time.

I am on another forums and this is what the chat thread looks there.
http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x346/TheAafg/chatthread.jpg

what this forum needs is to like send a warning to people who only post in the F&G and a section that is more active than F&G. Put F&G at like the bottom of the forum where the social groups are and name it aracde or forum games. Yes, forum games, thats good. That would make it harder to access and make it unusual resulting in less posting in that section of the forum.

[Cal]

ok i know i’m a nobody here. but if you get rid of the FnG forum this site will die. the FnG forum is part of the community. it’s how we get to know each other.

and the IRC Channel well lol that’s a joke... IRC is like channel 19 at a truck stop on a CB.... and if you never experienced it. try it. but let me warn you. you’ll here things you wish you never heard. where the FnG forum it’s more..... well for a lack of a better word, fun... fun for everybody. i guess you can say it’s more PG or PG13. where the irc is more for the loudmouths, Aholes, mud throwers, and hazing kings.... nothing wrong with it. just some ppl will not like it... (not everybody on the irc is that way... it does get bad...)

i think you should keep the FnG

I'm not sure why you call the IRC a joke. I've seen you there TWICE and that's all. It's a place to chat, vent, play games like Uno with other members, and just chill. Yes, some users can be d1cks on there, but they're only joking. As for if we remove it the forum will die, you're right. Everyone knows it, the question is; Is it worth it? Is it worth throwing away a spam forum to attract better members etc...


Alright so first off, I haven't been on this forum that long so this is what I think, it is my opinion and what I felt during the time I have been here.

I will start off my talking about the chat thread. Its easier to access, than the IRC. I know its a same number of clicks away but people still use it more than the irc. Seriously, no one wants to go up to community and then click irc and then open a whole new page in which they can chat. Having an easier access to chat will reduce the amount the things that are posted in the chat thread. People post whatever is on their mind in the chat thread, if we have like a shoutbox where people are talking right in front of them, instead of scrolling down to the chat thread to post it, they will just shout in the shoutbox.

As for other threads in F&G, people post in those threads to pass time and so that they can get a reply in the chat thread during that time. If less people post in the chat thread, less people will post in the other threads.

It is really easy to get addicted to posting in the F&G but I don't think we should close it. Sometimes you just need a break and just post random stuff and that is what F&G should be used for. Note, I said sometimes but people here do it all the time.

I am on another forums and this is what the chat thread looks there.
http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x346/TheAafg/chatthread.jpg

what this forum needs is to like send a warning to people who only post in the F&G and a section that is more active than F&G. Put F&G at like the bottom of the forum where the social groups are and name it aracde or forum games. Yes, forum games, thats good. That would make it harder to access and make it unusual resulting in less posting in that section of the forum.

The argument that it's easier to use forum for chat is dumb. To be technical what's easier.... Opening Chat Tab and it being there, or navigating the FnG to see where you want to go? Something I notice about new members when they come to IRC is that they use the default Java Client. I recommend you download your one client. It's soooo much better.

Anyway (even though I'm guilty of it too) Kou wants to know if we think it's hurting the forum, not if IRC can replace it.... IRC can replace the Chat Thread mainly, it couldn't replace all the FnG stuff...

[Ian the Korean]

Don't really think blaming F&G for a change in mentality of forum posting is going to solve the problem. Look at how people post on F&G then go hitup facebook, or twitter or even just most people's wall posts here on A4 and you'll see some pretty obvious parallels. I'm kind of of the opinion that the whole "internet forum" paradigm is and has been shifting away what you saw before all of these social networking sites existed in any meaningful capacity.

I mean, no offense here, but even on a website like SA where you have to pay money to even be able to simply post, the F&G type subforums like Laissez's Faire (politically themed and the spam subforum for Debate and Discussion), Your Console Sucks (gaming themed and the spam subforum for Gaming), and BYOB (pretty similiar to F&G honestly) generally draw in hundreds of users and have 200+ people browsing them at any given time while many other forums are lucky to have a few dozen at any given time. And somewhat recently they "quarantined" all three of those subforums into their own section where people posting there would randomly have their avatar changed to this: http://i.imgur.com/UBLTZ.png anywhere else on the forum, only removable by buying a cure for the "cancer." And yet people still post in those subforums regularly.

I don't have a solution unfortunately and I don't know if there's a way to change a mentality I find more and more frequently all over the internet.

[Takera]

Hey..... Kou.... If you remove Fun & Games I cant flirt with people anymore... that is unacceptable.

[AoX]

I want to say Ian's wrong. I really do. Unfortunately, he's right, especially about a shift in the paradigm as we know it, and I'd agree to blame, in part, the "revolution" of social networks. Of course, I just love to bash them so I'm obviously biased, but there is truth in it. An unfortunate development.

As for F&G, I'd gladly see it removed because it's totally useless to me, but... Yea, that's just me. I still think it does hurt the forum as a whole, but maybe not to such an extreme degree as I initially thought.

[Kouketsu]

A few initial reactions:

1. This isn't a thread about replacing something with IRC, so let's please not make it one and please not start comparing the two.

2. Even if we think the internet as a whole is digressing, does this mean we should still facilitate it with an entire forum dedicated to that? Why do we have to pander to that demographic? Are things that way because people are that way or are things that way because we (And all these other sites) have made changes to accommodate that mode of interaction?

3. People saying that the forum cannot survive or can't "be fun" or that you can't get to know people without F&G - this really does not constitute a solid argument. This is why I made my initial post. We had all those things even without it. F&G didn't create them or anything. A strong argument can be made that it actually made them worse. It's hard to see a strong point in things like this because it's being argued from the side of people who have never seen what this forum looks like with those thousands of posts in F&G being found all over the rest of the forum instead.

I'd really like to see the posts of more F&G regulars in here. It feels more like people have become attached to F&G "because it's there", not because it's something special or the reason they came to A4 or something like that.

[N7_]

Get rid of it. What do you have to lose?

Getting rid of it would only mush the frequents and no lives to some other area, most likely IRC (because people just need to chat!) or even PMing and PMing each other - and God knows maybe actually put up a half decent post in other sections as well. I would've said otherwise, but the section has become pretty much the focus of A4. And I dislike it for that fact. I didn't sign up to some 5P4|v| forum. It's repetitive and dumb.
Besides if they do go away, I'd say good riddance, they never liked or contributed to A4 worth noting. You know the saying, 'You gotta break a few eggs...'

Attracting the type of member you're after depends in part on the reflectiveness that A4 presents itself as. Staff and vets that have been here for trillions of years pretty much set the tone, but you should also keep in mind that some members don't require motivation or to be encouraged. They already 'get it'. But I'm all for not being an exponent to this so-called 'paradigm shift' where it's basically cool now to sh*t post.

And I wouldn't bother asking for opinions from those who frequent FaG's.

[Shian]

Fun & Games has it's place and then it also doesn't.
There is a lot of facets to the problem.

As mentioned, people treat it as a place to spam as well as to just drop a comment or two. I know I have my share of frustration with users like that, but also, a part of the problem is also our own staff as well as our own members letting those "comments" fly.

We didn't enforce it, therefore, we allowed it.
Members didn't want to help enforce it, therefore, they didn't mind it. Remember that we are a forums, and a community. It's up to the "community" to help us enforce rules so we don't have a problem.

Also, there as said, there is a paradigm shift in the internet, which basically means that these things are "ok". We also have walls, that kind of allows it to become a place of commenting.

Whether we remove it or not, I don't think it will solve anything nor will we gain anything from it. Another alternative is to make F&G hidden so that users can't see it until they join the forums.

As a community, we set the parameters and variables on how we want our community to grow and at the end of the day, it's up to the admins to see if it's feasible and that as a community, we don't potentially break the very thing we want to improve.

[Finalsaut]

At the end of the day anything I post in F&G can fly, where as else where I'd probably be infracted for spamming and the like. Also, it is quite difficult to develop a repoire with many of the members, taking into consideration the various demographics within the A4 community.

[Gamma]

Even with what Shian posted, I don't know that FnG is what turned the forum into what it is today. It's not something we can condense into one simple cause.

That being said, I propose that we slowly phase FnG out. We institute a chatbox, and remove the chat thread. Users have asked for a chatbox for a long time. Then when everyone gets used to that, we change that section to be a forum games section and enforce a no spam rule (no posts that don't deal with the game). That section will shrink on its own over time.

[5oul Crusher]

The major problem is that F & G attracts the most attention. I often decide what I am going to post on by the use of the newest post selection and you generally find mostly F & G posts. Well it is kind of fun to post on some of the threads because they are entertaining, most of them don't really serve a purpose. Well other than to waste time. And that is almost all the new posts there. At this point all I want to do is have a heated decision about the newest Bakuman chapter, but for one most of the time I can't have a serious conversation in F & G and there are no active threads about Bakuman Manga or anything else I read. So after not being able to vent my Bakuman frustration, I leave and depart off to read another manga.

One other thing is that when you post in a part of the forum other than F & G, you don't get many responses back. Maybe just one or two, but most of the conversation is dried up unless I you posting on a 'hot' topic. Most of the people in F & G would be better off trolling 4chan or some other **** like that or be posting about anime or manga in another thread. It would be a better use of their time. I also think is that the problem with post quality is that because the members in F & G that the members who post there generally don't post anywhere else on the forum, that is one of the reasons why people who use it's post counts go up so slowly even though they are active. If they post anywhere else it is generally quite minimal. Sorry guys but that is what I think.

If we removed F & G, the frequents there, would do 1 of 3 things which you probably already know, but I feel the need to post regardless: 1. Protest, then leave the A4 for good. AKA Rage quit.
2. Leave A4, but then not know what to do with this massive void of time that they have left behind. The either come back or fill that time in with something else.
3. Lastly a couple will grow a pair and continue on with life on A4 as if nothing had every happened. Ie use IRC/messaging one another for chatting, and actually post somewhere else on A4.

Personally I think that A4 will never die, just because of our URL. We never have truly appreciated just how lucky we are to have anime-forums.com as our URL, therefore it is imposable for use to completely die. Because of this I believe that we should remove F & G to increase posts and post quality. Because if we start talking anime it will be easier to attract new members and out of what we have, the post quality will be higher. Although my opinion will be biased because I use A4 mostly in the hours when no one else is online at all and that I really want more Bakuman talk.

[Cal]

That being said, I propose that we slowly phase FnG out. We institute a chatbox, and remove the chat thread. Users have asked for a chatbox for a long time. Then when everyone gets used to that, we change that section to be a forum games section and enforce a no spam rule (no posts that don't deal with the game). That section will shrink on its own over time.

I like this. Most posts (like mine) only include how bad it is or reverse. This is a realistic solution. I like this better than Shian's, even. By casually "letting go" of FnG it's not a make or break transition. It gives users the time to evaluate the progress of the forum and would help turn our "what if we get rid of it, what would happen?" into something we can actually look at in phases.

I've used a shout-box before on a VB, and the only problem I saw was that it seemed to slow the server a good amount. I'm not sure how Shian would like that or be able to fix any potential problems, but it's something worth looking into.

[Kewkehtsu]

I think the admins and site owner need to sit down and have a serious discussion on where they want the board to go. The constant appearance of these types of threads give me the impression that there is no direction, or goal we are working towards, that you guys are just fixing problems that rise rather than planning out for the long term. I completely agree that the forum has gone to **** in some areas, and it's because we as a community have allowed it to go that way. I don't want to sound like a dick, but I believe it's perfectly possible to have an off topic section full of spam and serious discussions elsewhere on this board, but I believe that inconsistencies in modding, general lack of direction on the part of the board, and our target demographic are contributing more to this problem than any single sub-forum....

Cut FnG if that's what it takes to make you happy, but I certainly don't expect it to solve the problem.

[Cal]

I completely agree with you mostly Tova.

The only thing I want to clarify on my part is that I (and I'm assuming most others on here) don't have the belief that cutting FnG will "slay the dragon that's killing our forum" it's just a suggestion on how, if taken out, it could potentially help.

I do strongly agree with your statements on the people in charge need to have a direction and not plan on taking care of problems as they come up. FnG has been around for years now, but (as far as I'm aware) it's never been altered or taken out etc...

..Anyway we already had this discussion so I'll try to post less in this thread and see what others think...

[personinthebox]

I'm new, so I have very little attatchment to this forum or it's formatting. However, I have, years of experience as a member and moderator of other forums. So I can offer an outsider's perspective.

While eliminating the F&G forum may seem like a solution to the lack of quality posts, it's really not. Removing it removes a place where people can be spammy and post off the wall comments without concern for banning. You take that place away, and you'll find those comments popping up in other areas of the forums. You don't want spam in your anime discussion forums. You get that, non-members see it. They're not going to sign up. Now you're damaging the potential to gain quality members who do want to talk about anime. People see that, they're not going to stick around for more.

You are not going to like this next bit. The moderating in fun in games is seriously lacking. There are quite a few thread topics that are better suited for other forums. Moderators, you need to moderate. Put these threads where they belong. There was a thread I saw about "great pages in manga." Why is that in F&G? Shouldn't it be in a manga subforum of some sort? Manga and Anime are not the same thing. Though they often go hand in hand. Either way, the thread is less a game and more of a visual statement. And doesn't the OCD thread belong in the "Personal Life" forum? I know I'm being very blunt here, and really overstepping my bounds as a newbie, but I figure a newbie's perspective is actually very illuminating.

Get rid of the redundant threads. "What would you do to the user above you", "****, marry, or kill", and "Kiss, Slap, hug" are the same thing, essentially. They are all a string of nonsense posts about doing something to the previous poster. You want that game? Ok, fine. You can have that game. Make it a sticky and squash the copy-cats. Games like this are a staple of sorts for most forum communities. So you should have them, but they need to be kept under control. You could have something like a "game of the week" and have members submit the games they would like to see. Or pick the handful of staple ones that are simply "must have" and keep the rest at bay.

To summarize my whole point. If you close your fun and games forum, the spam will leak out elsewhere, for all the world to see. Fun and Games needs moderation, and it needs it bad. Lay out a plan for it, implement it, stick to it. Don't play around with it. You have a whole administrative/moderator team. Go do some team-stuff. Naturally, the veteran members need to step up to the plate and help out. It is your forum as well, and if you want to see it grow and mature, you'll have to help out by setting the example.

Sorry for being so brutallly blunt, but blunt is the best way I know to make a point.

[RanmaSaotome]

As I have been gone for a while, my opinion may not really matter too much in the grand scheme of things, but...

I'm going to agree with Kouketsu, Shian, and Gamma on this one:

FnG needs to be phased out. "But dude, Jeff, half of your posts since you came back have been there!" Yes, I know. But that's because most of the other forums aren't NEARLY as active. I like the chatbox idea, as it could keep some of the FnG type humor and silliness for people to vent in, and be potentially more lax, while giving people time to post constructive things in the other forums.

I, for one, would like to see an expansion of the forums relating on specific anime; I don't like the current categories that we have now; they're too broad, and lots of good threads have been buried in massive ways, while we get some newer threads that are almost exactly the same as the old ones.

On the same coin, getting rid of FnG could have some negative results, but I'm kind of with the "we did fine without it crowd" as I was around more during that time, without the FnG subforum. The people that joined simply for the FnG section, that post 99% of the time in that forum... maybe they'd post on other forums without it. Maybe they would leave. But I'm sure as hell positive that A4 wouldn't die. I was gone for six years, and the place is STILL around. That's longevity for you, and I think we could be around as long as anime is, provided we don't elect moderators in the future that don't do their jobs and allow flame threads and posts to go unattended.

My only concern with the phasing out of FnG is, as others have mentioned... where will the spam go without a better replacement for it? I don't want to browse a Ranma 1/2 thread and all of a sudden see the standard "omg I would totally do female Ranma" like I have with all of the other forums I have been to while I was away from A4. That's just one bad example, there are many more. I do think that this should be discussed by the site owner (whomever that is now), the admins, the moderators, and a select 10-20 people that are nominated by moderators or the rest of the site to figure out what to do with the section, if you guys want to do it democratically. You could also just say "screw it, we're killing it," and that could be fine, too, but this is definitely a hot, pressing issue that should probably get dealt with sometime in the near future.

I love A4, which is why I came back, and I want to see the best for this forum. It was, and is starting to become all over again, a kind of second home for me.

- Jeff (RanmaSaotome)

[Darke]

Just get a Chat box instead of the whole forum.

About the way I feel about the forum, I used to post a lot in there back when I first joined, because honestly all the threads sucked in the other sections, and I wasn't even sure if people still post there. Then I started posting a little out of FaGs, and after that, I stopped coming for some time. When I came back I wasn't in the mood to rate avatars whatsoever, so I just kept posting on the Personal Life and General Discussion, then in all the forums. I still however post in FaGs because sometimes all the other forums are dead/have new posts in un-interesting threads.

I honestly think it should be removed though. BUT NOT THE VERSUS.

[Takera]

Uhm question guys, why do we need a Chat box? its like having a second Irc chat up >.<

[Ian the Korean]

The people saying the forum has "no direction;" would you be willing to clarify what you mean exactly? I don't really understand what you're suggesting. I mean, it's an anime forum, we want anime discussion. God knows a lot of the staff have gone out of their way to try and facilitate better threads by posting new threads and making cogent posts in existing ones. Posts and threads that are good tend to get ignored on the whole and get buried by the usual "top x number favorite/worst whatever" list type of threads. I mean hell, I made a really in depth "historical manga" thread (http://www.anime-forums.com/showthread.php?117696-Do-you-like-horse-punching-vikings-Badass-Macedonians-EXXXTREME-weaving) in the Anime and Manga forum, to try and get some interest in five series I follow at the moment and it was like pulling teeth trying to keep it on the first page.

Do you want the staff to more heavily moderate the terrible threads that people love to post in, in the rest of the forum? I mean I'd have no problem tossing all of those really shitty threads where people list 5-10 characters/shows/whatevers, and don't actually post a thoughtful reason as to why those are their favorites, into the trashbin. Cause I know I've tried posting in most of them while making "good" posts and people just continue typing up a small list.

I guess what I'm getting at is, it's great that some of you have these expectations of the staff to be able to singlehandedly change the general forum populaces posting habits overnight, but unless a lot of you guys regularly put in the effort to make better posts yourselves we the staff are essentially p*ssing in the wind.

[NavonWise]

http://web.archive.org/web/20040801215212/http://www.anime-forums.com/

Now those were the good old days, for those new members, click the link and check it out, this was in Aug 1st, 2004. But I wounder, what did A4 have back then, that it doesn't have anymore and it's just going downhill?

Seriously, I think the design is also a cause for A4 losing members and maybe not gaining any. Just look at how much it changed. We had the Series Specific where we had so many different animes in there. Some people just won't talk about a anime unless they don't see it. What we got now? Anime Genre

[Ian the Korean]

But we did have anime specific subforums for a while recently. They were even more dead and the posts that did crop up were basically nothing but the really shitty "top 10 fav characters/moments" bullshit.

[Guybrush888]

As other people have said getting rid of F&G won't really solve the problem of lame posts/threads or spam. It will just migrate somewhere else, in which case the mods will really have to be on point. I do have to agree though that it seems that anime almost seems to be a secondary or tertiary topic around here (which being anime forums is kind of sad).

For me the issue with not posting more in anime threads or starting my own is simply lack of material. I know that there are plenty of anime series that come out every season, however the amount that come out that I actually like are maybe 1 or 2 per season. I am not into the school/happy cheery/ slice of life/ romance/ kiddy stuff at all. So that leaves action/supernatural/period pieces, which there tend to not be alot of. So do to lack of material that I personally enjoy, I can't really put up any decent anime threads.

Granted there are some decent older series from prior seasons, but they seem to already have some representation on anime-forums (Shiki, HOTD, Mushi-shi, FMA:Brotherhood, etc..) Perhaps other people have the same issue, and there simply aren't any particular newer anime series that they feel compelled to post about, or maybe its just me.

I do have to say though that F&G in general needs alot more modding or something. Other people have already said it, but the amount of spamming going on in it is a bit much sometimes. Alot of threads in it usually end up being 2 or 3 people just going round and round in a loop of silly feedbacks. Rate the avatar/user above you, slap/kiss/hug, whats the avatar thinking, random fact (which is usually "im hungry", or "i like x food"), etc... It's alot of post just to post redundancy. Kinda feels like twitter actually hah.

Perhaps the answer is not to get rid of fun and games, but to maybe clearly define what is a quality thread in it and not just something born of mindless boredom. Also please no more x vs y polls. Its all fantasy fiction fanboy fighting debates, imo.

Also is there any real difference between "what are you listening too?" and "forced listening thread".

- Just read Gamma's post after mine regarding "what do we want". In F&G, one thread I can think of that isn't just mindless spamming is A4 roomate. I don't participate in it, but from what I have seen, it promotes social interaction amongst the members in a more organized format. Users put some thought into their answers versus just random nonsense. So maybe more threads in that sense. Where answers need to be more than a random blurp.

[Gamma]

I'm new, so I have very little attatchment to this forum or it's formatting. However, I have, years of experience as a member and moderator of other forums. So I can offer an outsider's perspective.

While eliminating the F&G forum may seem like a solution to the lack of quality posts, it's really not. Removing it removes a place where people can be spammy and post off the wall comments without concern for banning. You take that place away, and you'll find those comments popping up in other areas of the forums. You don't want spam in your anime discussion forums. You get that, non-members see it. They're not going to sign up. Now you're damaging the potential to gain quality members who do want to talk about anime. People see that, they're not going to stick around for more.

You are not going to like this next bit. The moderating in fun in games is seriously lacking. There are quite a few thread topics that are better suited for other forums. Moderators, you need to moderate. Put these threads where they belong. There was a thread I saw about "great pages in manga." Why is that in F&G? Shouldn't it be in a manga subforum of some sort? Manga and Anime are not the same thing. Though they often go hand in hand. Either way, the thread is less a game and more of a visual statement. And doesn't the OCD thread belong in the "Personal Life" forum? I know I'm being very blunt here, and really overstepping my bounds as a newbie, but I figure a newbie's perspective is actually very illuminating.

Get rid of the redundant threads. "What would you do to the user above you", "****, marry, or kill", and "Kiss, Slap, hug" are the same thing, essentially. They are all a string of nonsense posts about doing something to the previous poster. You want that game? Ok, fine. You can have that game. Make it a sticky and squash the copy-cats. Games like this are a staple of sorts for most forum communities. So you should have them, but they need to be kept under control. You could have something like a "game of the week" and have members submit the games they would like to see. Or pick the handful of staple ones that are simply "must have" and keep the rest at bay.

To summarize my whole point. If you close your fun and games forum, the spam will leak out elsewhere, for all the world to see. Fun and Games needs moderation, and it needs it bad. Lay out a plan for it, implement it, stick to it. Don't play around with it. You have a whole administrative/moderator team. Go do some team-stuff. Naturally, the veteran members need to step up to the plate and help out. It is your forum as well, and if you want to see it grow and mature, you'll have to help out by setting the example.

Sorry for being so brutallly blunt, but blunt is the best way I know to make a point.

I appreciate that you have years of experience on other forums. However, I would like to point out that not all forums are the same. The staff here, on this forum, have taken great pains to work with the userbase to make the forum into what they want because that's what a forum is...the mutual participation of its users. The users wanted to be able to spam, we needed a way to wrangle that spam, so we created FNG. And for a while, it certainly worked very well. The users wanted an easier to read forum directory. We tried that, and for a while, it worked really well.

The thing to remember is that a forum is an organic and will go through changes, highs and lows. We need to moderate? We moderate according to the rules that were set down, and the current climate of the forum. When the climate of the forum changed for the worse, we reigned it back in to avoid losing more users. The outcry was varied in both subject and volume, but in the end the users who were left agreed it was for the better. There will always be ebb and flow. The key is to work with it so that the forum stays fun, and a place where people want to stay. I'm sorry we're not up to your standards, but this forum, just like every other forum, works for its own reasons. The way one forum works will not always work for the way another forum works.

You're not overstepping your bounds as a new person. You are, however, unaware of the history of the forum and events that have transpired before your arrival and therefore should take care to understand all that's going on. It has caused you to make an assumption that is not entirely correct.

Sometimes a new person's perspective is illuminating and helpful. Insert subtext here.

Now, after saying all that...I would like very much for everyone to make up their minds. The users told us they didn't want a direction, they wanted to be able to do whatever they wanted to do. Well obviously we can't do that. So to allow a more free form environment, FNG happened. Now the users want direction. Ok great. What direction do you want? The site owner has been remarkably lenient in mission and direction, preferring instead to let the staff handle the issues.

So now, you want direction. Again, which one do you want? More anime? Forget the anime? No manga allowed? Manga's fine but in its own section? Please don't just drop broad statements like "we need direction" and not be prepared to offer solutions. You're not the Lost Boys and we aren't your Wendy. Tell us what you want.

TL;DR

Fine, what do you guys want to do?

[NavonWise]

But we did have anime specific subforums for a while recently. They were even more dead and the posts that did crop up were basically nothing but the really shitty "top 10 fav characters/moments" bullshit.

Oh....I was probably MIA. Well...maybe people are just getting tired of talking about the same thing over and over, there aren't that many good anime out there anyways. Isn't A4 the number one anime forum out there? And if it isn't, why don't we check out those other forums and see what they're doing that we're not? I'm not saying let's go out there and copy them, but just to see what are they doing different.

[KT Samurai]

I think if we want to direct the conversation to anime then we need to provide incentive to do so. Articles would have been an awesome way to do this, but the usership has flatly rejected the idea of a front page, the most ideal way to deliver that sort of material.

The second best way I can think of getting user-made articles to the forefront to drive discussion is to make it's own section, one where users can't create new threads but can comment in existing ones. If the article writers do their jobs they might inspire tangential threads, and hopefully the conversation would evolve.

What do I mean by user-created articles? I'd hate to toot my own horn (correction: I don't hate it) but something like this (http://www.anime-forums.com/showthread.php?108045-5-Completely-Retarded-Anime-Characters-Who-Are-Totally-Awesome)and this (http://www.anime-forums.com/showthread.php?84436-%93Fighting-for-Characterization-and-Story-Battle-Arena-Toshinden-quot&highlight=anime+fights)would be ideal.

[Ixioran]

I honestly don't like Fun and Games. I used to go there, but I realized after awhile that it's just the same redundant conversations over and over again. This being said, it's probably fair to assume that I'm biased against it.

I do think that we should get rid of Fun and Games because, quite honestly, it's not really fun at all. If ever there is a time to get rid of it though, NOW is the time to do it. If we're in a slump of inactivity, then now would be a great time to make these kinds of changes lest we scare off an even larger portion of the userbase which we would do if we made changes in an time of increased activity.

I guess what I'm saying is that we cut our losses now, stick it out for awhile, and hope for better days later.

I also agree with KT completely here. There is no incentive to have a conversation about anime. This is an anime forum, yet the thing that is discussed the least here is anime. This is not good at all. But this is a problem that can't really be remedied completely with articles or a front page. I believe it has to do with the userbase and the kind of members we attract to the forum. Not many of our users have a diverse background when it comes to anime. There are only so many discussions (and I hesitate to use that word) that you can have about Naruto and Bleach.

What upsets me the most is that topics like, "Who would win in a fight X or X?" exist and topics like, "Philosophy and Symbolism in GITS" don't. Another thing that pisses me off is people that sign up, ask a question or request a recommendation and then leave once they get a response. That REALLY upsets me.

Perhaps we should implement a graduated membership? I'm not sure exactly how it would work, but it could help deal with problems we have when it comes to people signing up and then leaving. Granted, it would probably prevent members from joining in the first place, but I would rather have fewer members who can carry an interesting discussion than a lot of members who have no idea that anime exists pasts Naruto or Bleach.

I know I will stick it out on this forum for a long time though. Out of all the forums I have been to, I enjoy this one the most, despite the relative inactivity.

[Takera]

http://web.archive.org/web/20040801215212/http://www.anime-forums.com/

Now those were the good old days, for those new members, click the link and check it out, this was in Aug 1st, 2004. But I wounder, what did A4 have back then, that it doesn't have anymore and it's just going downhill?

Seriously, I think the design is also a cause for A4 losing members and maybe not gaining any. Just look at how much it changed. We had the Series Specific where we had so many different animes in there. Some people just won't talk about a anime unless they don't see it. What we got now? Anime Genre

Most users ever online was 2,047, 07-14-2008 at 08:02 PM.

This was in 2008 If i remember right this was after Fun & Games came too this forum.

on the bottom of your picture it says, " In total there are 47 users online " while there are 139 online right now.

So my question is did A4 really lose members or is it just a rotation of members coming up and members who take a break from the forum for a couple years, take for example kou he took a break from this forum for a couple years but came back later.

[Edit] another thing I wanted to mention. Is it really the Fun & Games section being popular because you can spam or is it popular because anime is dieing out, I may be hard to understand but put it like this, wouldnt you get tired discussing an anime that has ended 15 years ago and all cool topics on that anime were already made, of course you can still post in that thread but after posting a few times in the thread nothing new comes to mind. take for example Trigun I dont see anyone actively talking about Trigun because people already did that and nothing original comes up.

[Kouketsu]

A few more things worth pointing out in response to various things said thus far:

- Just to reiterate what Ian said above, the removal of series specific was in response to their death, rather than the cause of it. The same is true for all the restructuring that we've done recently - it has come as a response to changes in how the forum is rather than what we'd like it to become. People might say that's part of the problem, but when we tried it the other way (Restructuring towards what we'd like it to become), instead of becoming that it tends to just run people off.

- The lack of modding in F&G is, for the most part, intentional. It was basically intended to be an unmoderated spam forum where you could do anything outside of flaming, obscenity, and illegal activities, more or less. To say "Moderate F&G better" doesn't make as much sense in this conversation - its purpose it to basically be unmoderated. In light of knowing this purpose, does this change anyone's feelings about keeping it around or what effect it has? I'd also like to point out that some of the examples people have given of "good" F&G threads are threads that, prior to F&G's existence, we used to let fly in the other forums - things like the 'A4 Roommate' would have been a perfect candidate for a General Non-Anime thread. But, back then, people would have put just a bit more time and thought into their responses, even if it was still a silly thread. If that thread were put up in GNAD today, it would look exactly like the Fun & Games version does - a dozen pages of inside jokes, flirting, and mindless spam.

- In response to the overwhelming "The spam will go elsewhere if you get rid of it" argument - I cannot blame people for having this position, but one thing that I would like to make clear is that this is already a big problem. And the fact that so many people can't tell that it is and think that mod staff needs to do their jobs makes me think we're probably doing them pretty damn well - because we delete, close, lock, and remove a metric ****ton of bad posts on a daily basis. Because this is removed, I don't exactly expect all you guys to be aware of it happening, because you can't see that stuff retroactively. But it happens. A lot. One notable change in this system though is that the consequences for these things have been relegated to basically a slap on the wrist (We silently delete your post and that's it) whereas they used to be followed up with infractions that would lead to eventual bannings. That was changed because even the bans were ineffective - people just kept doing it and still keep doing it, so we decided it wasn't worth the extra overhead.

- I agree with the sentiments expressed about users setting the tone - I've said before in other threads like this and elsewhere that, at the end of the day, we as staff can only delete posts/lock threads and make our own. We cannot force a bad member to write more thoughtfully or watch more anime, we cannot force people to create threads, we cannot make the userbase generate more and better content (Which is the problem we're addressing here, in case people weren't aware of this). That would then lead one to believe that the problem is with the make-up of the userbase and that's why I, personally, peg Fun & Games as being a direct contributor to the problem - I think it influences the make-up of the userbase. Many others clearly disagree with this assertion, but that's why this thread is here; so we can talk about it.

Edit:


;3256739']Most users ever online was 2,047, 07-14-2008 at 08:02 PM.

This was in 2008 If i remember right this was after Fun & Games came too this forum.

on the bottom of your picture it says, " In total there are 47 users online " while there are 139 online right now.

So my question is did A4 really lose members or is it just a rotation of members coming up and members who take a break from the forum for a couple years, take for example kou he took a break from this forum for a couple years but came back later.

A4 really lost members. And posts and threads and registrations and traffic. Unfortunately our hard data only goes back to 2006, but as a proxy for that, we can use averages and look at things like what JFlow posted. If you look at the popular sections of the forum at that time and how many posts they had and divide that by the number of the days the forum had existed (Pretty much two years by the time of that archive page), you'll see the average posts per day rate was a lot higher than it has been for the last few years here. And that day with the most members - hardly any of them were registered members. They were guests. I believe we were being raided or something.

[NavonWise]

;3256739']Most users ever online was 2,047, 07-14-2008 at 08:02 PM.

This was in 2008 If i remember right this was after Fun & Games came too this forum.

on the bottom of your picture it says, " In total there are 47 users online " while there are 139 online right now.

So my question is did A4 really lose members or is it just a rotation of members coming up and members who take a break from the forum for a couple years, take for example kou he took a break from this forum for a couple years but came back later.

[Edit] another thing I wanted to mention. Is it really the Fun & Games section being popular because you can spam or is it popular because anime is dieing out, I may be hard to understand but put it like this, wouldnt you get tired discussing an anime that has ended 15 years ago and all cool topics on that anime were already made, of course you can still post in that thread but after posting a few times in the thread nothing new comes to mind. take for example Trigun I dont see anyone actively talking about Trigun because people already did that and nothing original comes up.

Same thing I'm saying...



Oh....I was probably MIA. Well...maybe people are just getting tired of talking about the same thing over and over, there aren't that many good anime out there anyways. Isn't A4 the number one anime forum out there? And if it isn't, why don't we check out those other forums and see what they're doing that we're not? I'm not saying let's go out there and copy them, but just to see what are they doing different.

Also, the F&G has been around since May 21, 2005.

http://web.archive.org/web/20050521013044/http://www.anime-forums.com/

There are more people online in these years then back in the days, but we actually had ANIME discussions back in those days. But like you said, I think it's people are just getting tired and have other things to do. Some leave and come back years later...I did that.

[Cal]

I think if we want to direct the conversation to anime then we need to provide incentive to do so. Articles would have been an awesome way to do this, but the usership has flatly rejected the idea of a front page, the most ideal way to deliver that sort of material.

The second best way I can think of getting user-made articles to the forefront to drive discussion is to make it's own section, one where users can't create new threads but can comment in existing ones. If the article writers do their jobs they might inspire tangential threads, and hopefully the conversation would evolve.

What do I mean by user-created articles? I'd hate to toot my own horn (correction: I don't hate it) but something like this (http://www.anime-forums.com/showthread.php?108045-5-Completely-Retarded-Anime-Characters-Who-Are-Totally-Awesome)and this (http://www.anime-forums.com/showthread.php?84436-%93Fighting-for-Characterization-and-Story-Battle-Arena-Toshinden-quot&highlight=anime+fights)would be ideal.

This is another thing I would love to see implemented. People would be so much more willing to write awesome reviews (etc) if they KNEW it wouldn't get lost in the "What's New" tab with topics like, "Who's Your A4 Crush" etc....

I made a suggestion a while back for something like this. http://www.anime-forums.com/showthread.php?118080-Expanding-A4 (click on Shian's link)

My intent was (and still is) to expand A4 into something more than we are now. Creating a "Home Page" or something of the sort to promote good reviews etc would do nothing but HELP. I know I'm probably wondering off the exact purpose of your example. but still....

If we could do something like this then it would silently promote the main feature of our site without "anyone having to get their hands dirty"....

@ Takera... You must not EVER visit the DB Group, we discuss it over and over and usually learn something new every time :P

@ Gamma... I'm not sure what you mean? The direction is for the Staff to choose, us only to an extent. The main question is; Does the staff want to continue with the way the forum is now? or; Does the staff want to make a change they think will benefit A4? That's the question. Tov's point is that the staff members lead this forum (you can talk all day about how we're user base w/e) but at the end of the day it's up to the staff. I find it great that you would ask the forum for our input, but if everyone on here chose the wrong direction would you do it anyway? You're staff for a reason you know....

....Most people seem to disagree with the theory that cutting FnG will help solve the problem. I think it will. There will always be bad topics, bad posts, bad everything, really. However, if we as a forum promote it by having a forum dedicated to it, then we shouldn't complain in the first place. I complain because i feel that we can at least attempt to make A4 better.

[^_Elysium_^]

I honestly don't like Fun and Games. I used to go there, but I realized after awhile that it's just the same redundant conversations over and over again. This being said, it's probably fair to assume that I'm biased against it.

The same could be said about any part of the forum.

The anime boards are full of kids who, like you said, have no idea of anime outside of Naruto, Bleach, or some other extremely popular series. Thus the majority of activity is ridiculously stupid "discussion" revolving around those.

PLD is self-centered, near-sighted and angst filled. It's always full of threads about children who think their lives are so terrible. Or you get the rant threads where, honestly no one else save the OP cares about the events included in the rant.

CE is usually filled with low response threads, that don't have very much discussion value from the start. Unless the article posted has a very worldwide appeal, then it may get to page 4+.

The music forum is filled with elitists who bash on others views of music in any thread meant to actually hold some sort of discussion. Or it's filled with random "hey check out this cool band" that never gets very many responses anyway.

The video game forum is basically CE news with a focus on the Vidja. If I had to put my money on something though, I would say that the Video Game forum is probably the best part of A4. Actually discussion is attainable without it turning into some sort of e-peen contest like

ED! I don't care what any of you say. ED is full of faux debates that revolve around tossing around insults when people don't see things your way. Take Lord of the Pikachu's for example. Even the mods fell to the level of calling him "Lord of the Pedo's" back in that whirlwind is ****. I'm not saying he wasn't an idiot, but that's what ED breaks down to every ****ing time.

With all that said.

Get rid of F&Gs. It's really the only tie still keeping me on A4, for the small amount of time I actually give this place nowadays. However, I'll admit that the novelty of the forum has worn off. I think forums like this have a place in forums all over, but it should be a place for the members of the community to get to know each other. The fact that the "proactive" members have deemed those that post in F&Gs as shitposters doesn't help anyones case.

F&Gs should be a place for people to form friendships on the forum. This Anti-Spam crusade is great and all, but where will the community be able to connect with each other to form those friendships? If you honestly think you can form a friendship by commenting on the latest Naruto Manga threads, then by all means prove me wrong. You could argue that the intro threads are meant for that purpose, and then members are ....encouraged...to take their conversations to PM or VM or something. That's a very cubicle mindset. It promotes on-topic discussion, but social conversations are meant to take place behind the curtain.

Honestly, I don't know how to fix this issue. As other have said, the scope of things here is too large to blame on F&Gs alone. I don't think it's really helping the situation, but it's not really making the current state of things worse. I will say that when F&Gs goes, I'll go too. I doubt others feel that way, but it's how things will work for me.

[~*Shi*~]

If you want to delete it, delete it.

On a forum I'm a member of, all topics are started by admin. No one else is allowed, and you're banned if you don't introduce yourself. Everything is neat and the mods tend to crack down quickly on things. However, it's also a relatively small size forum, so it's a lot easier to go through.

[Gamma]

Calvin, as Kouketsu has pointed out above, and as I said before, the staff's function is to delete threads, enforce the rules, and implement suggestions. We cannot MAKE people be better posters and we should not influence the direction of the forum. That is not, nor has it ever been, our function as moderators. Shian and Kouketsu have the most direct contact with Knuckles, and if Knuckles suddenly wants this place to be somewhere to talk about pop-tarts, then we do what he wants because he pays the bills. However, until Knuckles tells them and by extension us that sort of directive, all we can rely on is what the userbase wants to do.

Unless you're saying that you WANT the staff to then have that sort of power. If we are to now dictate the forum direction, then that changes the nature of our work. And can you safely say that you speak for the rest of the forum that you want that to happen? I was under the impression that for the most part, users were happy being able to decide for themselves. Is that no longer necessary?

[Ian the Korean]

@ Gamma... I'm not sure what you mean? The direction is for the Staff to choose, us only to an extent. The main question is; Does the staff want to continue with the way the forum is now? or; Does the staff want to make a change they think will benefit A4? That's the question. Tov's point is that the staff members lead this forum (you can talk all day about how we're user base w/e) but at the end of the day it's up to the staff. I find it great that you would ask the forum for our input, but if everyone on here chose the wrong direction would you do it anyway? You're staff for a reason you know....

I was in the middle of writing up a big post but honestly you aren't worth the effort so I'll leave it at "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink" because that's the situation. Many of the staff members have tried to set a tone by posting well and making thoughtful responses. If the userbase doesn't follow that lead there is literally nothing we can do. So no, it isn't on the staff here, it's on the userbase to step up their game if they are honestly interested in better threads and discussions.

[Cal]

Calvin, as Kouketsu has pointed out above, and as I said before, the staff's function is to delete threads, enforce the rules, and implement suggestions. We cannot MAKE people be better posters and we should not influence the direction of the forum. That is not, nor has it ever been, our function as moderators. Shian and Kouketsu have the most direct contact with Knuckles, and if Knuckles suddenly wants this place to be somewhere to talk about pop-tarts, then we do what he wants because he pays the bills. However, until Knuckles tells them and by extension us that sort of directive, all we can rely on is what the userbase wants to do.

Unless you're saying that you WANT the staff to then have that sort of power. If we are to now dictate the forum direction, then that changes the nature of our work. And can you safely say that you speak for the rest of the forum that you want that to happen? I was under the impression that for the most part, users were happy being able to decide for themselves. Is that no longer necessary?

You're getting way too technical. I'm only saying that the Staff (including you, Bryce and whoever else) should have an idea. There is ALWAYS going to be someone who will disagree with you. This being said sometimes the staff has to nut up.

An example is: Beginning of the year Kou closed club threads. I (and over 50% of forum was against it), he however, did it anyway because he thought it to be in the best interest of the forum. Back then I argued that users should have say, like you are now. However, ask me now and I like Social Groups better.

I give Kou credit for being able to make a decision then to better benefit the forum. This is pretty much what I''m saying this will boil down to, and everyone knows it. There wont be a unanimous decision, it will come down to the staff having to make the decision, so I'm just telling you to get ready to chose the direction to take.

[Mordaxnothus]

I'm one of the worthless people who's spent a lot of time in F&G. I registered on the forum to talk about anime but with a lack of strong threads and steady discussion, I run out of things to visit before digressing and killing time in the chat area. I've considered threads of my own, but the four anime genre sub-forums see such little traffic, I doubt anything would be accomplished and the Anime/Manga section is choked up with F&G-esque topics. Finding select individuals to talk with one-on-one has been a much more rewarding experience in my time on the forum than the threads.

That being said, I don't forsee many negative effects from an F&G removal other than some disappointment and disappearances, but I seriously doubt it would break the forum. If things were so peachy before F&G's inception, why was it established? To create a "spam" area? Sounds like A4 set itself up for where it is now, giving everyone a place to make a mind-dump and not be penalized. Were changes noticeable as soon as a relaxed forum section was introduced, and if so, did the staff say anything about it? Are the staff's hands completely tied as far as making alterations to the forum unless Knuckles says something, then?

F&G draws far too much of a crowd for the userbase's habits to change by example or any kind of prompt, such as the posting contest. The mods said it's up to the community to decide its operations for itself and that they can't force anything on it, but I don't see what could possibly change without removing the juggernaut F&G section and focusing on the rest of the forum. Even most of the guest traffic is in F&G (God knows why) and I can't imagine we're attracting many people looking for good anime discussion when they see our silly spam section has the greatest activity. I really like A4's staff and am confident they could handle shaping the forum for the better without being dicks, but if that's not an option, what can we do besides setting examples and making promotions?

[Ixioran]

Perhaps instead of having all-purpose general moderators, we can have people to moderate specific forums? I see tons of clone topics in any given forum on a daily basis. I feel this would be easier to take care of if each member of the staff was more focused on a specific part of the forum.

[NavonWise]

I suggested this before, didn't work.

[RanmaSaotome]

Perhaps instead of having all-purpose general moderators, we can have people to moderate specific forums? I see tons of clone topics in any given forum on a daily basis. I feel this would be easier to take care of if each member of the staff was more focused on a specific part of the forum.

While it may seem a bit easier - and truthfully, it SHOULD be - the drudgery of having to watch over the same forum or two is quite possibly one of the worst feelings in the world, because it makes one's job not only harder (due to having less people available to take care of the problem - example, you moderate the General Anime forum with one other person, and at some point there is a metric asston of bad / flame posts that you have to take care of behind the scenes before people get offended and can't get to them all because you don't have more help), but it also makes it BORING.

I'm not quite sure what else we can do about the situation except for delete FnG, more heavily promote IRC, Ventrilo, and playing vidya games with each other to have good social interaction outside of FnG, and perhaps get a couple to a few more moderators to lessen the burden on the ones we currently have?

Something I did notice was missing from A4 when I returned was the A4 Council. Whatever the hell happened to that? I'm assuming it failed, but why?

In closing, at the end of the day, FnG is an eyesore for many, a paradise for some, and many don't care one way or the other about it. Getting rid of it wouldn't kill the forum, but I still believe we need to take precautionary measures if it is taken away. Also, Ian and whoever else said that "we as users need to step the game up if we want better things" (paraphrase) are 100% correct. We cannot expect moderators to hold our hands just to make good discussion, or to practice good posting habits... that's on US as forum members.

- Jeff (RanmaSaotome)

[Shannon Apple]

That being said, I propose that we slowly phase FnG out. We institute a chatbox, and remove the chat thread. Users have asked for a chatbox for a long time. Then when everyone gets used to that, we change that section to be a forum games section and enforce a no spam rule (no posts that don't deal with the game). That section will shrink on its own over time.

I actually like this idea of phasing it out and getting rid of the spamming in F&G. If a post doesn't contribute to a game, it should be removed. One mod did take F&G as his focus at one point and removed all the shiitposts and locked anything that turned to a chat thread. It did help to a certain extent. Going back to that and getting rid of the chat thread in favour of a chatbox, could be the best move we can make at this stage. One step at a time.



While it may seem a bit easier - and truthfully, it SHOULD be - the drudgery of having to watch over the same forum or two is quite possibly one of the worst feelings in the world, because it makes one's job not only harder (due to having less people available to take care of the problem - example, you moderate the General Anime forum with one other person, and at some point there is a metric asston of bad / flame posts that you have to take care of behind the scenes before people get offended and can't get to them all because you don't have more help), but it also makes it BORING.

I have to agree. I was a forum moderator for a time up until very recently on a different site and it was repetitive and boring. Also, the fact that we are in different timezones makes it easier for us supermods because there is someone online at all times that can edit all sections of the forums. Even when we can't be seen in online list, we are often there. If people use the report button as soon as they see something out of place, we can always get to it pretty fast.

[NavonWise]

You know what...it's true, I think deleting F&G is better for the forum. The quality of posts goes downhill as soon as you go there, and I guess people gets to used to it, that on other places they start posting "F&G quality".

[Ixioran]

While it may seem a bit easier - and truthfully, it SHOULD be - the drudgery of having to watch over the same forum or two is quite possibly one of the worst feelings in the world, because it makes one's job not only harder (due to having less people available to take care of the problem - example, you moderate the General Anime forum with one other person, and at some point there is a metric asston of bad / flame posts that you have to take care of behind the scenes before people get offended and can't get to them all because you don't have more help), but it also makes it BORING.

- Jeff (RanmaSaotome)

The solution to this problem is simple then. We keep our current moderator staff and appoint mini moderators to the individual forums. Also, you can have one person involved with moderating more than one forum...

[RanmaSaotome]

The solution to this problem is simple then. We keep our current moderator staff and appoint mini moderators to the individual forums. Also, you can have one person involved with moderating more than one forum...

We might as well just get about 2-3 more supermods, with that line of thinking. Subforum moderating is terribly boring. I'm all for adding more mods if we don't have enough, but not subforum moderators.

[NavonWise]

Regular members should play their part and report also...

[Cal]

I think that's sort of the point of Struggler and Pinky.

[Ixioran]

I think that's sort of the point of Struggler and Pinky.
They're the exact same as a regular moderator, except they only have it for 3 months. What I'm suggesting is a more focused moderation regiment.

[Gamma]

You're getting way too technical. I'm only saying that the Staff (including you, Bryce and whoever else) should have an idea. There is ALWAYS going to be someone who will disagree with you. This being said sometimes the staff has to nut up.

An example is: Beginning of the year Kou closed club threads. I (and over 50% of forum was against it), he however, did it anyway because he thought it to be in the best interest of the forum. Back then I argued that users should have say, like you are now. However, ask me now and I like Social Groups better.

I give Kou credit for being able to make a decision then to better benefit the forum. This is pretty much what I''m saying this will boil down to, and everyone knows it. There wont be a unanimous decision, it will come down to the staff having to make the decision, so I'm just telling you to get ready to chose the direction to take.

Then don't complain when you don't like what the staff are doing. If you're saying that we need to make all these decisions and even though you fought tooth and nail not to remove clubs, I don't think you have anything else to complain about the next time staff make a decision you don't like. You've said it here, black and white, clear as crystal and you will absolutely be held to it.

[Cal]

Then don't complain when you don't like what the staff are doing. If you're saying that we need to make all these decisions and even though you fought tooth and nail not to remove clubs, I don't think you have anything else to complain about the next time staff make a decision you don't like. You've said it here, black and white, clear as crystal and you will absolutely be held to it.

You're still missing the point completely. My whole point was that if the staff thinks that asking the community will help it come to a decision then you're wrong here. The only thing I said was that it WILL come down to a staff decision, not a community one. Also, as I already said I'm glad you did ask because the staff obviously cares enough to talk about it.

There is a difference in my pledging my allegiance to mod nazis (as you see it), and simply saying it's a controversial issue that the staff needs to be ready to decide how to deal with. I don't know how we carried this conversation on from me saying the staff needs direction. You're making it way too complicated. Saying this will end up as a staff decision doesn't mean I can't ***** when I want to, trust me.

I make suggestion threads all the time. I actually enjoy A4, I want to make it better, so don't get off pissed because I'm looking at reality, and take something simple so damn far out of context.

[Ian the Korean]

They're the exact same as a regular moderator, except they only have it for 3 months. What I'm suggesting is a more focused moderation regiment.

It isn't more focused though. Let's say you have a subforum-specific moderator online when no one else is and a topic gets reported in a section they don't mod. Welp. Your suggestion might be useful if we didn't have a report system, but with our current setup there's no reason to have subforum-specific mods.

Like, I get that you think a forum specific mod is going to catch things quicker than global mods might, but it simply isn't the case. Also, considering you've only reported five things in the past two weeks I don't find the basis for your argument terribly compelling.

[Kouketsu]

To try and reign this back on track here:

- We're not adding more mods, guys. Like I mentioned before, we have enough who do plenty - although a lot of that may be invisible to you guys because it involves removing things and there's no trail left behind for you to know that it happened. And we're definitely not adding any that would be specific to F&G because, as mentioned before, the point is that it's largely unmoderated. It was an all-or-nothing venture.

- Remember that this is a thread about Fun & Games - not necessarily about the rest of the forum. If people are making comments about the general state of the forum or staff that tie back into the Fun & Games thing, that's cool, but it feels like we're starting to drift off here into different areas.

- What I don't understand is the persistent idea that it's impossible to get to know people without Fun & Games. Can people better elaborate on why they're under this assumption? As mentioned numerous times throughout here, we went years without it and most of us got to know one another really well without Fun & Games (And even without having to have spoken on other mediums like IRC or MSN or Skype or whatever - these were more so just a 'next step' after becoming friends on the forum). We relaxed our rule enforcement slightly in other sections of the forum such that the "good" threads that now exist in F&G would have been allowed in other forums (Like the earlier 'A4 Roommate' example or my Matchmaker thread for another one), just without the mindless games and the chat threads, and we all met one another and formed a solid community just fine. Not only that, but it wasn't as fractured as it is now, where 'cliques' and pockets of users form because of their participation in the F&G forum and then they bring those inside jokes around to every other thread outside of F&G.

I really wish this thread got more participation from the throngs of users who are posting in F&G dozens of times every day because I know they're around and I'd like to better understand whether or not they really feel like having 20 threads about "_______ the user above/below you" or "Kiss/slap/hug" is a good thing. Like all I've gotten thus far from people is "It's what I do when I'm bored." If that's the case, I really do think then we should scrap them all. If people are bored with the rest of the forum, what's the problem with trying to improve it (Through adding more elsewhere)? I feel like if the choices are between making a new, interesting thread and sitting in a trash bin all day rolling around in the garbage, people are obviously gonna pick option two because it's just easier. Of course, the third choice is leaving, but option 2 and option 3 have the same net benefit in my eyes, except that option two makes this place smell bad, if I'm extending the metaphor.

[DDR Demon]

What I don't understand is the persistent idea that it's impossible to get to know people without Fun & Games.

The real problem is that I don't want to get to know any of the new members. They're all boring, unoriginal, (add more negative adjectives here) people who only want to post in Fun & Games.

The major turning point of A4 was when all the older members left. Until they come back - or until we get better new members - A4 is finished.

[NavonWise]

To try and reign this back on track here:

- We're not adding more mods, guys. Like I mentioned before, we have enough who do plenty - although a lot of that may be invisible to you guys because it involves removing things and there's no trail left behind for you to know that it happened. And we're definitely not adding any that would be specific to F&G because, as mentioned before, the point is that it's largely unmoderated. It was an all-or-nothing venture.

- Remember that this is a thread about Fun & Games - not necessarily about the rest of the forum. If people are making comments about the general state of the forum or staff that tie back into the Fun & Games thing, that's cool, but it feels like we're starting to drift off here into different areas.

- What I don't understand is the persistent idea that it's impossible to get to know people without Fun & Games. Can people better elaborate on why they're under this assumption? As mentioned numerous times throughout here, we went years without it and most of us got to know one another really well without Fun & Games (And even without having to have spoken on other mediums like IRC or MSN or Skype or whatever - these were more so just a 'next step' after becoming friends on the forum). We relaxed our rule enforcement slightly in other sections of the forum such that the "good" threads that now exist in F&G would have been allowed in other forums (Like the earlier 'A4 Roommate' example or my Matchmaker thread for another one), just without the mindless games and the chat threads, and we all met one another and formed a solid community just fine. Not only that, but it wasn't as fractured as it is now, where 'cliques' and pockets of users form because of their participation in the F&G forum and then they bring those inside jokes around to every other thread outside of F&G.

I really wish this thread got more participation from the throngs of users who are posting in F&G dozens of times every day because I know they're around and I'd like to better understand whether or not they really feel like having 20 threads about "_______ the user above/below you" or "Kiss/slap/hug" is a good thing. Like all I've gotten thus far from people is "It's what I do when I'm bored." If that's the case, I really do think then we should scrap them all. If people are bored with the rest of the forum, what's the problem with trying to improve it (Through adding more elsewhere)? I feel like if the choices are between making a new, interesting thread and sitting in a trash bin all day rolling around in the garbage, people are obviously gonna pick option two because it's just easier. Of course, the third choice is leaving, but option 2 and option 3 have the same net benefit in my eyes, except that option two makes this place smell bad, if I'm extending the metaphor.

Yeah kind of like the same thing I tried to say here:



You know what...it's true, I think deleting F&G is better for the forum. The quality of posts goes downhill as soon as you go there, and I guess people gets to used to it, that on other places they start posting "F&G quality".

But seriously, I doubt removing F&G will hurt this site. It's called ANIME forums, not F&G forums, and that's how it feels like, it's not even about anime anymore.

[RanmaSaotome]

The real problem is that I don't want to get to know any of the new members. They're all boring, unoriginal, (add more negative adjectives here) people who only want to post in Fun & Games.

The major turning point of A4 was when all the older members left. Until they come back - or until we get better new members - A4 is finished.

I see no constructive criticism here. Why is A4 finished? And furthermore, why is it necessary for the older members to come back? A4 is only as strong as the sum of its parts, and if some of those parts are rusty, or negative, then we will never get anywhere.

What would you suggest we do to make A4 a better place again? I believe that was the entire point of the thread being started. Being a Debbie Downer isn't going to solve a thing.

[Drunkinsnail]

I do a lot of F&G posting when I'm on here, but it'd probably pick things up a little getting rid of it. There might be quite few people that would leave as soon as it did, but if it goes, at least you know the newest people joining wouldn't be here just for random spam.

[NavonWise]

If those who leave because they removed the F&G, shouldn't be here anyway.

[Drunkinsnail]

Pretty much. Seems like it would also be a nice way to do a bit of member filtering. heh.

[DDR Demon]

I see no constructive criticism here. Why is A4 finished? And furthermore, why is it necessary for the older members to come back? A4 is only as strong as the sum of its parts, and if some of those parts are rusty, or negative, then we will never get anywhere.

What would you suggest we do to make A4 a better place again? I believe that was the entire point of the thread being started. Being a Debbie Downer isn't going to solve a thing.

I already suggested ways to make A4 a better place again.
1. Older members return
2. We get better new members

Throughout A4 history there were many threads entitled "What is your favorite thing about A4?" The consensus answer would always be our members. Thus, if A4 is losing activity then it must also be losing what people favor about it the most. I'm serious about my answer; it makes sense both mathematically and psychologically.

[Ixioran]

It isn't more focused though. Let's say you have a subforum-specific moderator online when no one else is and a topic gets reported in a section they don't mod. Welp. Your suggestion might be useful if we didn't have a report system, but with our current setup there's no reason to have subforum-specific mods.

Like, I get that you think a forum specific mod is going to catch things quicker than global mods might, but it simply isn't the case. Also, considering you've only reported five things in the past two weeks I don't find the basis for your argument terribly compelling.

Report Post: Ad Spam
Message reported

Report Post: Wrong forum
You must wait 60 seconds before reporting another post.

Me: "F*ck it. I go out of my way to make your job easier for you, yet you have to inconvenience me in the process? WTF logic fail."
If you change this, you'll see so many reports from me you'll get sick of seeing the report notification in your Mod control panel.

@Kou: Again, there are only so many things we can say relating back to F&G... It seems there are two camps here.

Group A: Wants F&G gone; generally feels like it's absence wouldn't cause too much harm.
Group B: Wants to keep F&G, uses the argument that the spam will flood elsewhere.

I've made my point: If ever there is a time to get rid of F&G, it's now, while we have a relatively low amount of activity. This way, the fallout isn't as bad as it would be if we were more active. As for the way I think it'll affect the forum, it largely depends on how the F&G-goers respond to it. If they do end up spamming the other parts of the forum, then it's the user's job to report spam, and the mods' to delete it. If they leave entirely, good riddance. We don't need them anyway.

I understand where Gamma is coming from when she says it would be better to phase F&G out over time, but I think that the shock therapy the forum will get from having the rug pulled out from under F&G can do more good than it can harm.
______________________
I honestly want to help improve this forum. I've said it before that I've enjoyed my time here more than any other forum I've been to, so I don't want to see it die.

You or someone else needs to tell users like me what to do for us to help you make A4 a better place. Just telling us to "make better posts," etc. isn't enough. I want my work cut out for me. I want to be told, "If you want to help, do this and that."

I will try my hardest to make A4 a better place. I'll have time in the next few days, so for now I'll do something along the lines of KT's articles. Other than that though, I need some direction as to what I can do. Perhaps you could start a brainstorming thread?

[DDR Demon]

To be honest, I'm surprised people think the problem lies within Fun & Games. F&G has been around since I joined and it was never such a huge concern. And that's because we had members who actually had a brain to post elsewhere.

[RanmaSaotome]

I already suggested ways to make A4 a better place again.
1. Older members return
2. We get better new members

Throughout A4 history there were many threads entitled "What is your favorite thing about A4?" The consensus answer would always be our members. Thus, if A4 is losing activity then it must also be losing what people favor about it the most. I'm serious about my answer; it makes sense both mathematically and psychologically.

While what you've said makes sense, there have to be other avenues that we can approach in order to get A4 jumping like "the old days."

Suggestion 1 may or may not happen, and if it does, that's great - but if it doesn't, then that has to be okay, too. Relying on older members to make this place "fun" again is simply short-sighted... among other things. We all have to work together.

Suggestion 2 is a good suggestion, except for the part where being new member Nazis would be an absolutely terrible thing. This forum is meant for the discussion of anime, and for getting away from the everyday grind. To force people through hoops (presumably) in order to get "better members" could potentially backfire; I would rather have people with personality.

There have been numerous other good suggestions in this thread that have been brought up, we need more like them. While I understand it's hard to take off the rose-tinted glasses, this forum, like everything else in life, has to grow, mature, and change with the times. Not doing so would be the REAL death of the forum.

Ixioran - Why should we have to be told what to do in order for us to start trying to make the place better? Shouldn't we have the initiative to do it on our own, and start a movement?

[Ixioran]

Ixioran - Why should we have to be told what to do in order for us to start trying to make the place better? Shouldn't we have the initiative to do it on our own, and start a movement?

We should have the initiative to do so, but some direction from the people in charge makes a world of difference.

[Lord Darkton]

The Fun and Games section I believe should be scrapped. I remember when it was first introduced and was received fairly well. I will admit, I was pretty addicted to it in it's early months. But after around a year or so, it got old. And I think it's outlived it's useful purpose. Yeah, you would lose a lot of members if your scrapped it, but sometimes risks have to be taken to make the forum, as a whole, better.

It's basically a spam center and A4 is better than that.

[NavonWise]

Like I said before, those who leave this site because we eliminate F&G shouldn't be here in the first place, they are probably the ones that DDR Demon calls...


The real problem is that I don't want to get to know any of the new members. They're all boring, unoriginal, (add more negative adjectives here) people who only want to post in Fun & Games.

And we don't wan't "boring, unoriginal people who only want to post in Fun & Games" now do we? So take out F&G, the boring, unoriginal people would leave, and hopefully we get good new members.

[Takera]

Hey Kou dont forget the ban the thread all you do is ban the user above you its lawlz to bad the banned user comes back into the thread anyway xD

[Shian]

How do you guys feel about this?

Tonight, when I get home from work, I'll turn off F&G so that you can no longer access it.

I'll implement a chatbox and we'll fly with this for a month and see how it goes.

So, Chatbox implementation / F&G Removal: April 18th, 2011.
Userbase decision: May 18th, 2011

If you guys want to KEEP the chatbox, we'll decide that on May 18th.
If you guys don't want to keep it, it goes.

[Denim Chicken]

If you close F&G, nothing of value would be lost.

[Nakimi]

The real problem is that I don't want to get to know any of the new members. They're all boring, unoriginal, (add more negative adjectives here) people who only want to post in Fun & Games.

The major turning point of A4 was when all the older members left. Until they come back - or until we get better new members - A4 is finished.

I don't think that making a blanket statement about newer members makes you "older members" look very good either. You just made a generalization that every single person who hasn't been here for the last 5-6 years is not a good quality member and cannot provide any valuableness to A4. I have no problem with getting rid of F&G because I think it will promote people to join ventrilo or talk in the chatbox if they just want to hang out and talk. Also, how do you plan on making sure every new member who joins is a "good" member? Are you going to do background checks and interviews?

Edit: Also, I think there are some threads we should make sure to save from Fun & Games. I think for example that the ventrilo thread should be moved to maybe the general non anime discussion forum.

[Takera]

How do you guys feel about this?

Tonight, when I get home from work, I'll turn off F&G so that you can no longer access it.

I'll implement a chatbox and we'll fly with this for a month and see how it goes.

So, Chatbox implementation / F&G Removal: April 18th, 2011.
Userbase decision: May 18th, 2011

If you guys want to KEEP the chatbox, we'll decide that on May 18th.
If you guys don't want to keep it, it goes.



Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo why you do this to me Shian.......
no more games to play what to do...

[Ian the Korean]

Play the games in the chatbox? I mean hell, if you guys wanted to do some of them badly enough, even irc channels could be made on Danger's server and some bots could be scripted. There's already a #uno where you can play with as many people who join the game. I think there's still one of those idlegames up as well, and we used to run a trivia bot too. Hell, if you guys wanted to keep it in sort of a "forum" format you could make a "Games" usergroup or something even for some of those low content sort of threads.

There's a lot of options at your disposal without F&G itself.

[Ixioran]

How do you guys feel about this?

Tonight, when I get home from work, I'll turn off F&G so that you can no longer access it.

I'll implement a chatbox and we'll fly with this for a month and see how it goes.

So, Chatbox implementation / F&G Removal: April 18th, 2011.
Userbase decision: May 18th, 2011

If you guys want to KEEP the chatbox, we'll decide that on May 18th.
If you guys don't want to keep it, it goes.

Go for it. Please do.

[Snow Wolf]

i'm going to be so sad... :,(

[ryanasaurus0077]

If F&G gets removed, where can we post the casting games I proposed? For those wondering, here's my proposal (taken from an earlier post I made upon returning):


A casting game is a thread where the opener posts his own cast for a live-action adaptation or an English dub of an anime or manga. Here's the format for movies:

"Title" (Year)
Cast
Actor A as Character A
Actor B as Character B
etc.
Director(s)
Name(s) of director(s)
Distributor(s)
Distributor A, Distributor B, etc.
Rating
MPAA rating for reason A, reason B, etc.
Music
Name of composer
Country(s)
Country A, Country B, etc.
Language(s)
Language A, Language B, etc.

Here's the format for English dubs:

"Title" (Dubbing company)
Cast
Voice actor A as Character A
Voice actor B as Character B
etc.
ADR Director
Name(s) of ADR director(s)

Here's an example of the former:

"Kampfer" (2010)
Cast
Rupert Grint as Natsuru Seno
Emma Watson as Akane Mishima
Jessica Sumpter as Shizuku Sango
Bonnie Wright as Mikoto Kondo
Kay Panabaker as Kaede Sakura
Lisa Ortiz as Harakiri Tora (voice)
Victoria Hester as Seppuku Kurousagi (voice)
Ashley Hughes as Kanden Yamaneko (voice)
Daveigh Chase as Chissoku Norainu (voice)
Rutger Hauer as Hiaburi Lion (voice)
Genevieve Gaunt as Rika Ueda
Anna Popplewell as Sayaka Nakao
Ayaka Komatsu as Ryoka Yamakawa
Mika Nakashima as Hitomi Minakawa
Jake Lloyd as Kanji Higashida
Jamie Lynn Spears as Masumi Nishino
Alisa Durbrow as Midori Kuzuhara (Director's Cut only)
Director
Paul W.S. Anderson
Distributors
Walt Disney Pictures, Cinergi Pictures, Summit Entertainment, Nu Image Films, and Millennium Films
Rating
Theatrical version: PG-13 for sci-fi fantasy action, thematic material and brief strong language
Director's Cut: R for pervasive language, teen smoking and an image of blood
Music
David Arnold
Countries
Japan/UK/USA
Language
English

After the game is posted, users can make comments and suggestions concerning the casting game in question, which I am free to reply to. The catch is, the comments can't turn the thread into a flame war. For example, if I was asked, "Who would dub Rupert's voice if he's playing the girl Natsuru?", I'd say "Either Sarah Lafleur or Laura Bailey." And if another asked me, "What about the boobs?", I'd say, "They can use either realistic-looking prop boobs to stick onto his chest, kinda like the ones seen in an early chapter of Pretty Face, or CGI." And if I was asked, "Why would Disney release an R-rated movie--and with smoking, at that?", I'd counter by saying, "Number 1, the R rating only applies to the Director's Cut; number 2, Disney raised a few eyebrows when they released their first PG-13 film, Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl, back in 2003; and number 3, Disney only applies its no-smoking policy to family films, and even then a non-human smoked in their recent movie, Tim Burton's Alice in Wonderland." Any comment is fair game as long as it doesn't escalate into a flame war.

Also, now that you mention it I never explicitly said I wanted the section to be outside of 'Games', and I myself believe it should be a sub-section of 'Games'. That's all I have to say aboot the matter (pardon the Canadian accent).

If F&G were to go, this needs to have a home, and fast! I'm all for them being posted in the appropriate anime section to which the casting game pertains. What about you?

[Ian the Korean]

I'm half tempted to say maybe the TV/movies subforum, but I dunno for sure. It doesn't seem like that great of a thread. :/

[KT Samurai]

Someone could simply create a "forum games" social group and you could post something like that there.

[AoX]

^ This. Was about to suggest the same.

Then you can have a lot of games and you even have some more control!

[ryanasaurus0077]

"TV/Movies" and "Forum Games" both sound like great ideas to post casting games. Let's put it to a vote between the two.

[NavonWise]

Someone could simply create a "forum games" social group and you could post something like that there.

Yup, I go with this...

[Mordaxnothus]

How do you guys feel about this?

Tonight, when I get home from work, I'll turn off F&G so that you can no longer access it.

I'll implement a chatbox and we'll fly with this for a month and see how it goes.

So, Chatbox implementation / F&G Removal: April 18th, 2011.
Userbase decision: May 18th, 2011

If you guys want to KEEP the chatbox, we'll decide that on May 18th.
If you guys don't want to keep it, it goes.

Excellent. I'm eager to see how this pans out.

[Ashღ]

why your getting rid of this? it's fun and enjoyable. :( This sucks.

[Cal]

why your getting rid of this? it's fun and enjoyable. :( This sucks.

If you read through the 60 posts before yours, you might understand.

[Da_Ace_Freedom_Faller]

Hmm well its good and bad in my opinion.
Good side: YOu can talk about random things and fun threads.
Downside: Most of the people spend their time on F&G and not on any of the other forums.
Although im new from what i've seen that's what it seems like to me.
It'd be sad but at the same time good.
But i think it'd be good to get rid of it for a month just to see what happens.

[Ashღ]

If you read through the 60 posts before yours, you might understand.

i read through after, ty very much. i understand why, i just am not in favor. hmphers.

[NavonWise]

Anyone saw this yet?


How do you guys feel about this?

Tonight, when I get home from work, I'll turn off F&G so that you can no longer access it.

I'll implement a chatbox and we'll fly with this for a month and see how it goes.

So, Chatbox implementation / F&G Removal: April 18th, 2011.
Userbase decision: May 18th, 2011

If you guys want to KEEP the chatbox, we'll decide that on May 18th.
If you guys don't want to keep it, it goes.

Yeah, so let's go with this...

[Mordaxnothus]

i read through after, ty very much. i understand why, i just am not in favor. hmphers.

Shh, no hmphers. It's for your own good.

[Shian]

F&G is currently disabled and a Chatbox is now taking it's place.

[EriKut]

I don't mind if its removed, considering the Chat Thread is lame nowadays.

[Kouketsu]

Edit: Also, I think there are some threads we should make sure to save from Fun & Games. I think for example that the ventrilo thread should be moved to maybe the general non anime discussion forum.

I think this is an important consideration - there are some threads in F&G that I think could be worth having outside of them (My current Matchmaker thread comes to mind), although at the same time I'm not exactly sure that I'd like them to be just moved directly from F&G into the greater forum. I'd rather they be recreated so they can be held to a higher standard.

Regarding creating a Forum Games social group, I am strongly opposed. The whole point of closing F&G is that people spend too much time there and it spreads elsewhere - I don't think we should endorse circumventing the entire point of its removal by creating another place to do the same thing. F&G already had post count disabled and most of the other things that would apply to social groups. I think now when someone asks, "Where should I put this game thread?" the answer should be "Not on the forum." What people should do is try and make "games" that are high quality enough to be made into official events that we can actually get behind. If it's just another generic game thread, we should try and avoid those.

[Mordaxnothus]

Regarding creating a Forum Games social group...


Jesus, the mere thought is terrifying. It would be even more clique-prone.

I see a bit more activity in a couple of sub-forums already, but you don't suppose users and guests will simply substitute staring at fun-and-games with staring at the chatbox? I think this is a step in the right direction, but still.

[ryanasaurus0077]

I guess "TV/Movies" would be a better place to put casting games if this is the attitude some people are going to have about a "forum games" section.

[Bongs4Jesus]

**** yea F&G is gone. This feels like an anime forum now.

Can we have like the chatbox at the top of the forum by any chance? so we can like browse threads and talk at the same time.

[Mordaxnothus]

**** yea F&G is gone. This feels like an anime forum now.

Can we have like the chatbox at the top of the forum by any chance? so we can like browse threads and talk at the same time.

I think it's best that people see the forum sections rather than silly blabber first thing. Either way, you can't browse over the sections without it disappearing off your screen, so what difference does that make?

[Bongs4Jesus]

I think it's best that people see the forum sections rather than silly blabber first thing. Either way, you can't browse over the sections without it disappearing off your screen, so what difference does that make?

you can post on threads like I am doing right now and then just scroll over and chat instead of having a whole separate page dedicated to chatbox.

[Mordaxnothus]

you can post on threads like I am doing right now and then just scroll over and chat instead of having a whole separate page dedicated to chatbox.

You can do that now, It's just at the bottom of the homepage instead of the top. Clicking the link at the top isn't necessary.

[NavonWise]

I think he means having the chatbox appear where ever you go...

[Warning Magnet]

I would say that on average the anime forum itself gets MAYBE 10-12 posts a day. And it is usually the same people.

How is removing the F&G section going to change that, exactly?

[Gamma]

I think we've already gone through all that. I invite you to go back and read through some of the earlier posts.

And besides, this just an experiment. If it doesn't work, we try something else.

[Shian]

I would say that on average the anime forum itself gets MAYBE 10-12 posts a day. And it is usually the same people.

How is removing the F&G section going to change that, exactly?

Because this is an "Anime" Forums.
Not a "F&G" Forums.

[NavonWise]

Similar to what I said huh...


But seriously, I doubt removing F&G will hurt this site. It's called ANIME forums, not F&G forums, and that's how it feels like, it's not even about anime anymore.

But yeah, if we lose members because of this, well the only ones that would leave were the ones who only posted in F&G...I don't think that's a bad thing.

[Shannon Apple]

I guess "TV/Movies" would be a better place to put casting games if this is the attitude some people are going to have about a "forum games" section.

I would rather not see game threads such as what was in F&G anywhere on the forum. If you are good at coming up with games, why not think on a bigger scale? We need people coming up with Forum Events/Contests that people can take part in and have fun with. The whole spam thread thing is just more of the generic that we don't want.

[ryanasaurus0077]

You know what? Why didn't you say so? Casting games would work well as Forum Events/Contests! All we need is a good way to adapt the casting games as I described earlier as Forum Events/Contests, and we're all set!

[Istacous LeSouriant]

You guys still interested in reflections? Yes? No? Oh well, here we go!

Since I'm pretty much new here, I can't reflect on much. But if you want reflections, then boy, I got the mirrors!

Historically, I never really posted much on F&G type areas on forums. Where I did most damage was General Discussion areas. I found unusual that the GD forums here were kinda dead. I would check on it a lot to see if people made any new topics or posted anything new. After a while, I just went to where all the activity went: Fun & Games. Fun & Games, to me, was like the gateway to A4. The thing that hit me the most was other than interacting with the few people who posted in the introduction thread, I never really chatted with others much. Perhaps I scared off most people with my bizarre introduction, but that's another story. I started to notice that I was mingling with the different A4ers the most in F&G. And even neater is I can do all that without investing too much time into it. I could come in, say hi, post a funny thing or two, and move on. In short, F&G was a great place for casual anime fans like myself to chop it up with others.

But maybe you have some kind of grand scheme laid out for us. Perhaps a more optimal way for all of us to mingle together. Who knows? I'm just here for the ride.

[NavonWise]

Wasn't it quite obvious though? I mean isn't that what the Events/Contests Forum is all about?

[MoSteel]

I don't care, regardless either way if we have it or not, but I do think that what's posted there isn't counted as a post. As in it doesn't make your post count go up. A good way to cut spam post as I see it.

[Oh Snap.]

Man, we've gonna lose a lot of quality users.

A lot of quality users.

Hope you're happy, A4 staff.

...........

[nabe shogun]

O.K I know I'm new... but IMO, I think FnG's have left things a little liberal.... I found this site looking for....

A) a fun anime style Role Play to get used to, so I know what to expect moving into a more advanced RP site...
B) a place to get reviews and recommends on new or overlooked animes/manga....
C) maybe a place where people understands ones obsession with anime/manga/video games/other "geeky" stuff...

but I'm against FnG because I got to comfortable, I wanted to show off my avatar and sig due to a couple of games... but I ended up with an infraction not paying attention...

FnG gives you a loose feel to the function of the site (not saying its ruleless, just that everything in good fun) but when you're new then BLAM five points, it makes you feel like you were suckered in for a punch in the gut...

now if the whole site had a universal feel, without sacraficing the fun... you won't feel you're walking on eggshells....

I came from another forum, where their rules were strict, but the subject matter called for that... and it was still very fun to say the least...

I say remove it to save the next good and/or worthwhile member any emotional yo-yoing..... well I don't post there any more, and I'll more than likely post in relevant topics when my sentence is over....

[NavonWise]

I thought F&G was shut down for a month...it's still here.

[Cal]

People are using the archive. I think it to be best if Shian will make it where users can't even use that.

[NavonWise]

I thought Shian turned it off for now?

[Shian]

People are using the archive. I think it to be best if Shian will make it where users can't even use that.

What archive are you talking about?
Users can't even access anything that is placed in the archive.
I can't even access the archive without going into the backend.

[Cal]

What archive are you talking about?
Users can't even access anything that is placed in the archive.
I can't even access the archive without going into the backend.

Click the "What's New" tab. It shows that users are still posting in FnG, I just figured they were using archive.

Here you go: http://www.anime-forums.com/showthread.php?116841-Chat-Thread&p=3258419#post3258419 I just posted.

[Shian]

Click the "What's New" tab. It shows that users are still posting in FnG, I just figured they were using archive.

Here you go: http://www.anime-forums.com/showthread.php?116841-Chat-Thread&p=3258419#post3258419 I just posted.

When you click on it, can you actually go there?

[Cal]

Yes, I can, I can also read and post.

[Shian]

Try it now. You should DEFINITELY not be able to access it.

[Cal]

Can't access it now, that's better.

[Shian]

Cool. Thanks for the heads up.

[NavonWise]

Yeah I was surprised it was still on, but not many people were posting i the Chat Thread...maybe Shian's idea is working..

[^_Elysium_^]

Yeah I was surprised it was still on, but not many people were posting i the Chat Thread...maybe Shian's idea is working..
I think people weren't posting there because the forum itself was removed.

I guess the majority of Chat Threader's don't use their subscribed threads page. No surprise there, right progressive members? RIGHT!?

Here's an idea though.

Shian, would it be possible to get some sort of statistic from a rise/decline aspect of forum activity after a week has passed since F&Gs was removed?

[NavonWise]

It was shown in the Recent Forum Posts though, that's where I found out it was still on. And yeah I would like to know after a week, if this idea is going good or bad.

[Cal]

That's a horrible idea. Everyone knows forum activity will go down. We did this because we care about quality not quantity.

[NavonWise]

Still, it's good to know how much down/up it wen't. Wouldn't really matter, as you said, quality not quantity.

[Shian]

I can post a reading on April 28th to keep you guys up to date.
I'll post an analytic every week until May 18th.

[FROIDBUSTER]

Mods could always just crackdown on duplicate threads and crappy posts. I know plenty of other forums with discussion topics that span years and dozens of pages, I've only been here about a year and even I've seen quite a few duplicate threads or ones where random people list their favorite whatever. If members are too stupid or lazy to write something worth discussing, something funny, something meaningful, or something interesting, probate them and leave the post so everyone that follows know it was worthless.

Some of you might cry out but *le gasp* we'll lose members!? Which is true but I've seen enough posts like "Dude game/anime/character X is awesome!" where if someone disagrees the immediate response "Well that's my opinion and you can't change it herpa derp!" to know a lot of posters are worthless. And yes if you crackdown on posts/threads you'll lose people like that probably by the dozens probably. But honestly leaving that **** doesn't help especially if you're trying to promote discussion.

Look at the portal 2 thread. Every single post in that thread was ****, sure they weren't spam, they weren't offensive, and they weren't breaking rules but that's those type of posts aren't ever going to lead to anything, hell not a single one mentioned a god damn thing about the actual game. That's the type of **** responses I expect on my facebook wall when I announce "Hey guyz I bought portal 2!".

People are going to ***** no matter what but I' would wager most of the forum regulars would sooner make an effort if they saw the shift in the forums rather than immediately leave.

[Neji195]

The Concept of Deleting Fun and Games is a Risk.

There are some people that get on this site to only post on F&G, i can list a few. I really don't care if its gone because i don't get a post count anyway like i use to. I think it'll be a risk because some people won't be able to chat like they want to, or just post rhetorical dumb-ass things. I can probably guess that it'll decrease the sites activity more than it already is. It's like taking a risk to either stab A4, or Heal it.

Experiment for a week, and record what happens.

~Words from a Genius

[Ian the Korean]

People can still chat or post rhetorical dumb-ass things, they just do it in the chatbox. Chances are the same people who were online that they spoke to when they were posting in the chat thread will be online and available in the chatbox.

[Neji195]

People can still chat or post rhetorical dumb-ass things, they just do it in the chatbox. Chances are the same people who were online that they spoke to when they were posting in the chat thread will be online and available in the chatbox.

Mr. Ian The Korean, we will see my friend:)

[Takera]

So far the chatbox been freaking dead only ive been active in it.

[Shian]

;3258539']So far the chatbox been freaking dead only ive been active in it.

It's not dead at all. It's kept me amused all day.

I just wait for responses and reply as they come.

[Oh Snap.]

Its kinda hard to drop things on the user below in the chatbox.

I've tried.

[Kanami]

Its kinda hard to drop things on the user below in the chatbox.

I've tried.
That's because you were trying to drop real items. Try dropping bombshells instead. I see that most ppl in there are very susceptible to imaginary items falling on their noggins.

[Oh Snap.]

Welp, its shaping up to be a complete disaster.

The people who posted in F&G seem to have dissapeared along with the forum or become trapped inside the chatbox. Which btw, is way worse than Fun And Games ever was for straight up inane/dullness.

Do you know why the 'shoutbox' was never added for all these years despite being second to 'hentai forum' as most requested thing in suggestions?

Because it sucks. Everywhere. I mean it might be mildly amusing on a 'Tears For Fears' message board.

I'm assuming the person who came up with this cunning plan will fall on their golden key. Or whatever it is the staff use to lock stuff.

[Saganite]

i stopped coming here anyways since f&g is gone i predict a shitstorm happened

[Ian the Korean]

i stopped coming here anyways since f&g is gone i predict a shitstorm happened

Pretty terrible prediction. Nothing happened at all.

[Cal]

i stopped coming here anyways since f&g is gone i predict a shitstorm happened

Predict is a present tense form of speech while happened is a past form. In another words you're predicting that something already happened 0_o'

To think A4 will lose members like you. We should bring back FnG right now.

[Mr_SaxMan]

To tell you the truth, after not reading the previous hundred posts on this topic, I think the Fun and Games forum should go back. It was an area where we could have fun playing games, saying random stuff, and expressing ourselves in new ways. But with that gone, it's left a hole in the forum. Not to insult it, the Anime Forum is absolutely awesome, but it seems a little too... serious... I'll go with that, without a Fun and Games area. It's kind of like the funny socialization area where people can be silly and random without complaint, while everywhere else is the more serious conversations. I don't think Anime Forum should go down as history's most serious forum, I think we should get the Fun and Games topic back.

It's kind of like school. If you have a lunch or Recess period in your school, then you have the Fun and Games topic with you, but what if you attended a school where there was none of that, you ate lunch and learned at the same time, and your only free time was during passing periods to other classes. That's the forum now.

[Cal]

To tell you the truth, after not reading the previous hundred posts on this topic, I think the Fun and Games forum should go back. It was an area where we could have fun playing games, saying random stuff, and expressing ourselves in new ways. But with that gone, it's left a hole in the forum. Not to insult it, the Anime Forum is absolutely awesome, but it seems a little too... serious... I'll go with that, without a Fun and Games area. It's kind of like the funny socialization area where people can be silly and random without complaint, while everywhere else is the more serious conversations. I don't think Anime Forum should go down as history's most serious forum, I think we should get the Fun and Games topic back.

It's kind of like school. If you have a lunch or Recess period in your school, then you have the Fun and Games topic with you, but what if you attended a school where there was none of that, you ate lunch and learned at the same time, and your only free time was during passing periods to other classes. That's the forum now.

In all seriousness I amend you on a good post.

The relation you're failing to understand is that FnG held an estimated 70% of our forum's new posts. So it would be like recess all day with a half an hour of seriousness instead of the way you put it. Most people find this site by searching "anime forums"; literally in a search engine. That being said, we want to attract people who are here to talk about anime more than "What's a lie about the user above you"...

[Mr_SaxMan]

And by making that post, I am 70% sure somebody will find something wrong with it, and start telling me how dumb it is and why I should be ashamed.

Well, posting this before I saw the comment above...

Sorry, I didn't know it would be that big a proportion, I am wrong... again...

[Struggler]

To tell you the truth, after not reading the previous hundred posts on this topic, I think the Fun and Games forum should go back. It was an area where we could have fun playing games, saying random stuff, and expressing ourselves in new ways. But with that gone, it's left a hole in the forum. Not to insult it, the Anime Forum is absolutely awesome, but it seems a little too... serious... I'll go with that, without a Fun and Games area. It's kind of like the funny socialization area where people can be silly and random without complaint, while everywhere else is the more serious conversations. I don't think Anime Forum should go down as history's most serious forum, I think we should get the Fun and Games topic back.

It's kind of like school. If you have a lunch or Recess period in your school, then you have the Fun and Games topic with you, but what if you attended a school where there was none of that, you ate lunch and learned at the same time, and your only free time was during passing periods to other classes. That's the forum now.

When we have an IRC chat, we don't need the stupidity of the FnG forum. All bases are covered without it. Same goes for the chat box. We don't need two chats.

Let FnG burn, and let the ashes seep into the earth.

[Cal]

And by making that post, I am 70% sure somebody will find something wrong with it, and start telling me how dumb it is and why I should be ashamed.

Well, posting this before I saw the comment above...

Sorry, I didn't know it would be that big a proportion, I am wrong... again...

Your post was "good", as I already said. The top half of it explains why you want to keep it is if nothing else, honest.

The reason talk even began of removing it was because of the fact that it was overtaking the other parts of the forum.

[Lady Bonne]

I wasn't around for much of its existence... in fact, I think I came in right at the end, but it seemed pretty useless, and the people on it were awfully "clique"-y.

[Mr_SaxMan]

Ok, I'm 130% sure to lose this due to how well I fit in at Anime-forum, you guys somehow finding reasoning that I didn't know about, making me realize how dumb it was for me to say that, but I really don't see the FnG forum as stupid. Just because something has their bad moments here and there doesn't mean it's hideous and despicably useless. Ok, let me rephrase what I said above. Ok, there ARE a lot more posts there than the other forums, and the FnG forum might seem like the wrong thing to keep here.

Ok, yes, we have a chat, (BTW, my computer won't let me use the IRC chat, so I must use the Chatbox), but that's it? I mean, the FnG forum was a fun place for many to be, it's not as though it was unsuccessful, or tainting the website.

What's really the negative about it to you? Just because somebody is playing the "What's a lie about the user above you" topic doesn't mean they don't like Anime at all, and they are just there for the game. They most likely still like Anime, or they would be at a different forum. And I don't think it is very stupid... Well, stupid as in "the worst idea ever, it should never have happened". Is it really wrong for a forumer feeling down, then fancying to entertain him/herself with a quick game on the FnG forum? I used to go there when I was feeling sad, and a lot of the things there made me laugh and feel better.

Also, if it were taking over the forum, then why is there still a lot of other activity around the other forum topics? The FnG topic is also one of those things that attracts others to come in, and look at the rest of the forum, along with it.

Now before I am antagonized as an Anti-Authorities person here who is just trying to give you guys a hard time, I really am not. I just want to state my own opinion on the FnG forum. And lots of other people miss it also, not just me.

[Struggler]

What's really the negative about it to you? Just because somebody is playing the "What's a lie about the user above you" topic doesn't mean they don't like Anime at all, and they are just there for the game. They most likely still like Anime, or they would be at a different forum. And I don't think it is very stupid... Well, stupid as in "the worst idea ever, it should never have happened". Is it really wrong for a forumer feeling down, then fancying to entertain him/herself with a quick game on the FnG forum? I used to go there when I was feeling sad, and a lot of the things there made me laugh and feel better.

Well that's the opposite of me. FnG made me sad, hate humanity, and had me wanting to go live on a secluded island by myself.


Also, if it were taking over the forum, then why is there still a lot of other activity around the other forum topics? The FnG topic is also one of those things that attracts others to come in, and look at the rest of the forum, along with it.

Taking over as in people who post sh*t in there think it's okay to do the same elsewhere on the forum - which happens, a LOT. Remove a place where sh*t posts are accepted, and you'll hopefully find less of them other places on the site. Or more, due to people not having a place to post garbage. Seems to be a little of both now, but we'll see.

[Mr_SaxMan]

Ok, thanks for telling me this, I had really no idea the problems this topic was causing, and I apologize for wasting your time by arguing. My final word.

[Kewkehtsu]

Struggler, the claim was that removing FnG would improve post quality.
The only way to improve post quality is to foster a community atmosphere that supports those kinds of posts. I still firmly believe removal of FnG was unnecessary towards this end. The staff saw the draw of FnG as a serious issue, and I understand they didn't want people to join strictly for FnG. But additional moderation, rule rework, and a post about community quality would have probably done the job. I understand this means more work, and I'm not about to call the staff lazy as they volunteer their own time to essentially put up with bullshit, but as I've stated before I don't think the removal of FnG was necessary.

[Mr_SaxMan]

Actually, this is something that is a good idea from a different forum that can help eliminate sh*t posting:

A new user makes an account on the forum. When that new user posts, his or her post must be approved by a moderator for the next three to five posts. This will give us a good prediction on the new user, as once you have a good user, they will most likely not sh*t post. If you have a bad user from the start, you can highly predict that they are bad users, or just extremely new to the imternet. The rest you guys can take from there.

[KT Samurai]

From my perspective the removal of FnG hasn't affected the other sections a whole lot, for better or worse.

[Guybrush888]

I for one don't really miss F&G that much. While I haven't seen a upsurge in quality new threads, I haven't seen a decrease either. Honestly it is kind of nice to hit "new posts" and not have the top 10 be all F&G threads of "what would you do...., avatar above you... etc..." Maybe with some more time people will be more inclined to create threads that require putting some thought into the following posts.

[Da_Ace_Freedom_Faller]

Well that's the opposite of me. FnG made me sad, hate humanity, and had me wanting to go live on a secluded island by myself.



Taking over as in people who post sh*t in there think it's okay to do the same elsewhere on the forum - which happens, a LOT. Remove a place where sh*t posts are accepted, and you'll hopefully find less of them other places on the site. Or more, due to people not having a place to post garbage. Seems to be a little of both now, but we'll see.


I agree F&G got pretty annoying cause that's where the majority of people spent there time posting and didnt really feel like a Anime Forum. BUt nowsince it's gone more people are posting stuff about anime which is what an Anime forum is suppose to be about. Yeah it's good for a forum to have an off topic section for fun. But not when people would post useless topics that wouldn't last long or some topic where you guess what the user is doing. Half the time people would post useless replies to the topic making them sound like an idiot.

And yes i did notice that when people would post useless sh*t on F&G would go around and post on the other forums around here.

So i agree with 100% Struggler.

[Guybrush888]

Actually this may just be a coincidence. However I seem to notice alot more "grave digging" of old threads since F&G has been removed. I think alot of the newer users, used to first start in F&G. Now without F&G they look around for various threads, and it seems alot are atleast a year or more since the last post in it.

[AoX]

Honestly it is kind of nice to hit "new posts" and not have the top 10 be all F&G threads of "what would you do...., avatar above you... etc..." Maybe with some more time people will be more inclined to create threads that require putting some thought into the following posts.Now that you mentioned this, I realized it's pretty awesome those abominations are gone. Now the chance of getting somewhat relevant New Posts showing is much higher.

[x9000]

Now that you mentioned this, I realized it's pretty awesome those abominations are gone. Now the chance of getting somewhat relevant New Posts showing is much higher.

I guarantee you it will not happen, still

[Kewkehtsu]

Now that you mentioned this, I realized it's pretty awesome those abominations are gone. Now the chance of getting somewhat relevant New Posts showing is much higher.

You're right, that was pretty obnoxious, however the same effect could have been accomplished with a script or other simmilar feature that doesn't pull new posts from FnG.

[KT Samurai]

So, can anyone report any actual negative side-effects of the removal of FnG or are we just postulating what they might be? Theories don't exactly work when the deed has been done and nothing awful has happened.

[Kouketsu]

Yeah, so preliminary stats show really no noticeable change in any of the other forums, at least as far as quantity is concerned. Quality is a more subjective measure but I don't know if we should even say a lot about that until we're deeper into this. Just a week is hard to tell with things and I don't think anyone expects things to just change overnight.

[Guybrush888]

So, can anyone report any actual negative side-effects of the removal of FnG or are we just postulating what they might be? Theories don't exactly work when the deed has been done and nothing awful has happened.

Only what I noticed before. I think there is more grave digging of old threads by new users that seemed to usually post first in F&G. Although it may just be a coincidence.

[Lady Bonne]

True, with that said, I haven't noticed any change in the quality of threads yet. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the FnG forums, but I'm not really sure, upon meditation of the subject, if removal is necessarily justified if we see no positive effects.

[Takera]

The activity on the forum is just wow. I'm searching for decent threads to post in but cant seem to find any.

[KT Samurai]

True, with that said, I haven't noticed any change in the quality of threads yet. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the FnG forums, but I'm not really sure, upon meditation of the subject, if removal is necessarily justified if we see no positive effects.

Well, the point of my question was, Was anything of value lost?

The answer so far seems to be "no".

[Lady Bonne]

Well, the point of my question was, Was anything of value lost?

The answer so far seems to be "no".

Oh, and, don't get me wrong, I'm going to have to agree there.

[Kewkehtsu]

Well, the point of my question was, Was anything of value lost?

The answer so far seems to be "no".

Was anything of value gained?
We started with a subjective assessment of the forum, obviously we are going to end up with subjective results.

We oughtta wait for the usual summer influx, and go from there.

[KT Samurai]

Was anything of value gained?

If it all squares out, if nothing is gained or lost, then we just trimmed some of the fat on our chubby forum. That would be a good thing.

[RanmaSaotome]

;3259896']The activity on the forum is just wow. I'm searching for decent threads to post in but cant seem to find any.

So post some?

Anyway, I haven't noticed too much extra activity in the other forums, but it definitely is there... as for the quality, I can't say one way or the other because I've been slightly busy reccently, but... I have a strong feeling that the summer influx without FnG may be one of the better ones we've had.

[Kouketsu]

So post some?

Yeah, just gonna come echo these sentiments. If there was ever a time for this forum to pull itself up by the bootstraps, that time is now. This place is entirely what we make it.

For what it's worth, I also do agree with KT that there's value to this even if it doesn't suddenly make every other forum tons better or something. Time will still tell, though.

[TonyTony]

So wait did you guys actually listen to me here http://www.anime-forums.com/showthread.php?107902-How-can-we-improve-Extended-Discussion/page4 ??!!?

Kudos to you. I hope the user base starts posting more relevant topics to this forum and this makes me consider posting more, as someone who about 2 weeks ago decided to quit the forum as it was filled with FnG and non anime posts!

[Bongs4Jesus]

thanks for re-arranging the sections, this way we can see the "anime" part of the forum
+1 you guys

[Bieberhole69]

So wait did you guys actually listen to me here http://www.anime-forums.com/showthread.php?107902-How-can-we-improve-Extended-Discussion/page4 ??!!?

Kudos to you. I hope the user base starts posting more relevant topics to this forum and this makes me consider posting more, as someone who about 2 weeks ago decided to quit the forum as it was filled with FnG and non anime posts!

Sure you quit just because of that?

Now instead of F&G we have to deal with blogposts. No seriously. It was just as easy to ignore the subforum as it is to ignore the blogs.

[Kewkehtsu]

I'd like to take this moment to point out a recent comment, the context is that vess dropped a one liner in the thread, and the OP requested an explanation. Original posts can be seen here: http://www.anime-forums.com/showthread.php?119671-Equality-Forum-Philadelphia&p=3260476&viewfull=1#post3260476

The comment:

This is PLD. He doesn't have to give a reason for anything.

If you want a serious discussion, please start one with an Extended tag in GNAD.

I personally believe people should be the change they want to see in the world, instead of having parades and trying to freak the mundanes.

I'm not picking on Gamma, trying to piss the staff off again, or stroke my ego. When I see that kind of post I can't take the recent removal of FnG as a serious response to the issue regarding post quality...

Even if the comment was made in jest, we all know there is a kernel of truth to it. If you guys just wanted to remove FnG because you didn't like specific people, or hated its content, then admit it. Don't string the forum along on this "we're improving forum quality" crusade.

[Ian the Korean]

I for one hated it's content and a lot of it's users and am not saddened in the least to see any either of those gone. :3

However, I had nothing to do with it's removal. :3

[FullMetalFangirl]

Meh... I liked F&G, but I won't cry over it.

Sure, there was a lot of fun in that section... but for every intelligent poster there were 10 douchebags. It was really starting to annoy me.

Besides, now... hopefully we can get some quality members.

[Oh Snap.]

I'd like to take this moment to point out a recent comment, the context is that vess dropped a one liner in the thread, and the OP requested an explanation. Original posts can be seen here: http://www.anime-forums.com/showthread.php?119671-Equality-Forum-Philadelphia&p=3260476&viewfull=1#post3260476

The comment:


I'm not picking on Gamma, trying to piss the staff off again, or stroke my ego. When I see that kind of post I can't take the recent removal of FnG as a serious response to the issue regarding post quality...

Even if the comment was made in jest, we all know there is a kernel of truth to it. If you guys just wanted to remove FnG because you didn't like specific people, or hated its content, then admit it. Don't string the forum along on this "we're improving forum quality" crusade.

The staff seem to be conveniently forgetting that F&G was in essence, a dumbass containment field.

I think this was a very shabby attemt to rejuvanate GNAD, personally.

[^_Elysium_^]

That's a horrible idea. Everyone knows forum activity will go down. We did this because we care about quality not quantity.
Well in a perfect scenario, all of those kids in F&Gs would leak out to the other forums and activity in those forums should go up.

If forum activity stays the same in all the other forums, then all those wonderful shitposters jumped ship. However, if overall forum activity jumps then the possibility of retaining those users increases and we'll be able to observe either an increase or decrease in post quality based on that.

Basically, if post counts stay the same, and quality doesn't seem like it was affected; then I would consider this a failed experiment. But if something changes, then it hints to what steps to take next. However, judging from the couple recent posts about quality there doesn't seem to be much of a change. So I'm just curious to see if the other side of the spectrum changed.

We could see members from 2009 return with renewed vigor to increase their 300 post count with nothing but outstanding quality posts to aid in the "Help A4 stop sucking" crusade. But I have my doubts.

[Shian]

I apologize that I'm a bit late.

So, I'm looking over the numbers.
There has been no significant change in activity.

People are now heading over to General Non-Anime Discussions AND our Anime and Manga forums more often.

There has been a significant drop in activity in the Video Game forum (it is now ranked BELOW certain user profiles and PLD).

----

Based on our Forum Software:

Active Users capped at 975 last month (dropped to 890 on the 30th), and it is currently at 975 for the first week of May. Let's see if we can produce good content and topics to get that 975 to 1000+.
We haven't been at 1000+ in over 2 years.